Egypt and democracy

[Arising_uk]

Our democracy "working" , really , you think what we have is working ,
not from where I sit , our democracy works if you are rich and powerful ,
religious , or in the right gang ,
but if you are Atheist , single ,independent , not affiliated ,
you will find the system can and will ignore you if it chooses to do so .
my rights in one of the most trusted and un corrupt democracies in the world ,
are being walked all over often , as an Atheist , as a member of the public trying to get ,
medical attention at a government funded hospital ,
in my opinion , what we have in the west ,
IS NOT WORKING NOT HERE, NZ, NOT AMERICA , NOT ANYWHERE

You forget that before 'atheists' would probably not have existed or at least not publicly. So yes, democracy has worked in some sense.

What are you talking about with respect to getting medical attention?

[Godfree]

Our democracy "working" , really , you think what we have is working ,
not from where I sit , our democracy works if you are rich and powerful ,
religious , or in the right gang ,
but if you are Atheist , single ,independent , not affiliated ,
you will find the system can and will ignore you if it chooses to do so .
my rights in one of the most trusted and un corrupt democracies in the world ,
are being walked all over often , as an Atheist , as a member of the public trying to get ,
medical attention at a government funded hospital ,
in my opinion , what we have in the west ,
IS NOT WORKING NOT HERE, NZ, NOT AMERICA , NOT ANYWHERE

You forget that before 'atheists' would probably not have existed or at least not publicly. So yes, democracy has worked in some sense.

What are you talking about with respect to getting medical attention?

Fifteen years ago I went to a public hospital here in Christchurch NZ ,
I have an internal abscess issue , we still don't know where the source is ,
but they drained it fifteen years ago , and then went into denial ,
they know these things aren't fixed by a simple draining , but for 12 years they insisted ,
a bold faced lie , and the patient was continually telling that it was not fixed ,
the only reason they re-opened the case is because it burst out again ,
otherwise they would still be able to deny me ,
so even in one of the least corrupt countries in the world , dick head hitlers can ,
run a muck and deny people their rights even within a government institution ,
so there are no perfect systems ,
even the best of them can be abused by those in positions of responsibility .

[spike]

Things haven't worked out in Egypt or the Muslim/Arab world as they were supposed to. The belief was that if economic modernization was introduced into this part of the world, as they were many years ago, political modernization would eventually follow. But it hasn't worked out that way, as has happened in the transition of Eastern Europe and many parts of Asia. The things that got in the way and have remained obstacles are culture and religion.

Whereas culture and religion in the West have been more malleable and receptive to change, the Muslim/Arab world has been stubborn and mainly remained fundamentalist. This could be deliberate, as an organized means to stand up and show resentment towards encroaching Western values. The only thing is that countries like Egypt can't move ahead unless they become completely politically transformed and inclusive, something the Muslim Brotherhood was not offering or prepared to do. The Generals don't seem to be understanding of this either.

[henry quirk]

"Things haven't worked out in Egypt or the Muslim/Arab world as they were supposed to."

By whose standard?

[spike]

By whose standard?

That's like asking what's normal.

[henry quirk]

"That's like asking what's normal."

Indeed.

What is 'normal'?

Who decides?

What is appropriate for Egypt?

Who decides?

[Godfree]

"That's like asking what's normal."

Indeed.

What is 'normal'?

Who decides?

What is appropriate for Egypt?

Who decides?

Normal is an IQ of 100 ,
not very bright ,
it's normal to believe in god ,,be obese and smoke and drink ,,
me personally I have always aspired to something a little above normal ,,

[Arising_uk]

Things haven't worked out in Egypt or the Muslim/Arab world as they were supposed to. The belief was that if economic modernization was introduced into this part of the world, as they were many years ago, political modernization would eventually follow. But it hasn't worked out that way, as has happened in the transition of Eastern Europe and many parts of Asia. The things that got in the way and have remained obstacles are culture and religion.

Sorry but what are you talking about? The only difference between what Morsi was doing and what's going on in the old Eastern European countries is that we're not reporting what's going on there as it's not yet a flashpoint that we're concerned about. Their 'democracies' are rife with nepotism for the group in power, they've stacked the bureaucracies, censored the press, changed their constitutions to suit themselves and are oppressing and discriminating against their minorities. Oh and the Orthodox Church is back on the rise and in cahoots with the politicians. I guess if there is one difference it's in the idea of the strongman running things, a particularly EE concept and a hang-up from the Soviet days of Papa Stalin.

Whereas culture and religion in the West have been more malleable and receptive to change, the Muslim/Arab world has been stubborn and mainly remained fundamentalist. ...

This took the 'West' hundreds of years to achieve!

This could be deliberate, as an organized means to stand up and show resentment towards encroaching Western values. The only thing is that countries like Egypt can't move ahead unless they become completely politically transformed and inclusive, something the Muslim Brotherhood was not offering or prepared to do. The Generals don't seem to be understanding of this either.

There are no encroaching 'western values', apart from the idea of a Democracy, Egypt is firmly a Muslim nation and the democracy that evolves from this will be based upon this. As it was in the 'West' when Christianity was, and still is in many places, the political base.

[Arising_uk]

Normal is an IQ of 100 ,
not very bright ,
it's normal to believe in god ,,be obese and smoke and drink ,,
me personally I have always aspired to something a little above normal ,,

Shame that writing English wasn't one of them.

[Godfree]

Normal is an IQ of 100 ,
not very bright ,
it's normal to believe in god ,,be obese and smoke and drink ,,
me personally I have always aspired to something a little above normal ,,

Shame that writing English wasn't one of them.

Who's english ,,boarding school english ,,???
american english ,,???
na mate gimme Kiwi English any time ...

[Arising_uk]

Who's english ,,boarding school english ,,???
american english ,,???
na mate gimme Kiwi English any time ...

The one that uses the correct word, correct punctuation and, maybe, capitalisation to ensure clarity of sound and meaning when hearing words through sight. Something I presume the Kiwis, despite being Scots(joke!), also value. Now I wouldn't normally bother with this but it just grates when a person claims to be above the norm and the 'not very bright' whilst demonstrating the opposite with their writing.

[spike]

Arising_uk,

You miss the finer point of my argument. Back in the 1950s there was this liberal theory that political modernization would follow economic modernization. As people developed economically (the theory went) and gained a measure of affluence, in time it would be followed by political liberalization to match the economic liberalization. It has happened this way in many Asia nations - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Thailand, and in Eastern Europe with the fall of communism. This same evolution has occurred in Latin America, where economic gains have translated in political gains and more open societies. (Religion isn't as influential or suppressive in Latin America as it once was.) We can see this slowly occurring in China, that people there are becoming more politically organized, civic minded and voicing it. In other words, networks of political engagement develop out of and around personal economic emancipation, something that has not transpired in Egypt or many other Muslim/Arab countries. That this was not occurring in the Muslim/Arab nations as the liberal theory went gave birth to neoliberalism, liberals reverting to a more conservative view of the world, where things don't evolve but are created (creationism).

You are right, it took many years for this economic/political evolution to occur in the West. And I have argued that (if you hadn't noticed). It is now beginning to occur in the Muslim/Arab world, which in a sense is 500 years behind the reformation and liberalization that started in Europe. Nevertheless, there is something more conducive about Christianity and its makeup than Islam towards personal emancipation and open societies. Christianity has been more capable and comfortable with networking and communicating ideas than Islam.

[henry quirk]

What is appropriate for Egypt?

Who decides?

[spike]

What is appropriate for Egypt?

Who decides?

Ultimately Egypt and Egyptians will decide what's best for them. But what is appropriate for Egypt is what is appropriate for any society that wants to survive and continue, that it be an open society, allowing individuals the freedom to pursuit their own interests and feel they have a stake in the system, without fear. This gives individuals a sense of belonging, wellbeing and responsibility, which in the long run makes society more vital, robust and sustainable.

Egypt doesn't have much choice if it wants to survive and continue but become democratic and an open society, in order that it function better. The rise in 'social media' is indicating that peoples all over the world are wanting more freedoms and openness. This freedom and openness makes society more dynamic and able to regenerate. (The agenda of 'social media' seems to be for a more open society and the benefits that will ensue from it.)

[Godfree]

Who's english ,,boarding school english ,,???
american english ,,???
na mate gimme Kiwi English any time ...

The one that uses the correct word, correct punctuation and, maybe, capitalisation to ensure clarity of sound and meaning when hearing words through sight. Something I presume the Kiwis, despite being Scots(joke!), also value. Now I wouldn't normally bother with this but it just grates when a person claims to be above the norm and the 'not very bright' whilst demonstrating the opposite with their writing.

So is it that I claim to be above intelligence that grates you , I have the stats , IQ , 130 ,
8 children in my family , all are above 120 , my dad was a teacher ,
so you see my sloppy penmenship/typing/writing as an obstacle in the way of understanding my posts ,,???
I would suggest it's just your way of scoring points ,
you get bored with trying to get me to agree with your philosophy ,
so you try and score points any way you can ,
Egypt and the dictatorships ,
Religion is a dictatorship , god is the head , and makes all the rules ,
and the priests and ministers interpret those rules , as you the common person is too stupid ,,!!!
so while they insist on basing their world/politics on religion ,
they will be a dictatorship ,
to rise above the ignorance of religion ,
England declared it's self a secular democracy , and has come close to achieving it ,
those who have tried to copy , often are still a bit of both ,
trying to cling to their religion , and introducing democratic elections ,
in order to become a secular democracy , you have to see religion ,
as less important than democracy ,
you have to topple religion , cut it down a peg or two ,
religion needs to be beheaded , a public demonstration
they like to burn images of Bush etc ,
they need to start burning images of The Profit Mohamud ,
they need to ridicule and belittle religion and their precious profit ,
The French leader 250 years ago said of England ,
a godless society ,
they were then at the point they declared themselves a secular democracy ,
to rise above it ,,
YOU NEED TO LOOK DOWN AT IT