The Limits of Science

[skakos]

The first thing that doctors tell a man who is in danger of losing his life due to a disease, is that he must have the WILL to live. Call it whatever you want, but the immaterial mind really and actually affects the material body. He who views himself as a lifeless machine, has to really support his view.

[Arising_uk]

The first thing that doctors tell a man who is in danger of losing his life due to a disease, is that he must have the WILL to live. Call it whatever you want, but the immaterial mind really and actually affects the material body. ...

And yet these doctors have no way of telling them how to actually do this? NLP does.

You are assuming what you argue for?

There is no problem with the material mind affecting its material body, in fact this makes more sense than what you say.

He who views himself as a lifeless machine, has to really support his view.

No-one views themselves as lifeless, just not the product of an immaterial something that can't be shown.

[socratus]

The Limits of Physics
In classic physics motions are governed by Newton's laws.
Question:
how can there be motions not ( !) governed by Newton's laws?
The answer:
there are causes of motions not included in Newton's theory.
Q.: where are these causes hidden ?
A: these causes are in QT, in the microworld.
There are boundaries between Quantum and Classical physics
and the territories they share. There are eternal and infinite game
between macro and micro worlds.
==..

[skakos]

The first thing that doctors tell a man who is in danger of losing his life due to a disease, is that he must have the WILL to live. Call it whatever you want, but the immaterial mind really and actually affects the material body. ...

And yet these doctors have no way of telling them how to actually do this? NLP does.

You are assuming what you argue for?

There is no problem with the material mind affecting its material body, in fact this makes more sense than what you say.

He who views himself as a lifeless machine, has to really support his view.

No-one views themselves as lifeless, just not the product of an immaterial something that can't be shown.

I am not sure what is your point here.
The mind can affect the brain you agree.
But if everything is just matter (the matter we all know) then what is the difference?
You are just accepting the obvious!

[Arising_uk]

I am not sure what is your point here.
The mind can affect the brain you agree.

I don't really have a 'brain', I have a CNS. I don't really have a 'mind', I have an endocrine system, a skeletal-musculature system, linked by a CNS, wrapped-up in a big organ, i.e. I'm a body with senses in an external world. What makes 'mind' appears to be having a complicated CNS and if two of these recognise each other and have a language then we get a 'mind' with a 'self', or some such.

But if everything is just matter (the matter we all know) then what is the difference?

Language and neural nets that perform functions upon each others outputs, i.e. memory and sensory feedback systems.

You are just accepting the obvious!

What should I accept?

[skakos]

Oh, so certain are you... as Yoda would say...

So do you KNOW what is that little thing you feel inside when you feel... You?
Have you solved the mysteries of consciousness?

[Kuznetzova]

Actually it is you who have decided not to answer to an extremely interesting topic just because you are afraid of the possible answer. Not too scientific attitude if you ask me...

I'm sorry. Seems to be some confusion. You assumed that I don't have knowledge of the entire body of paranormal pheneomena. You are wrong. I am extensively familiar with it and its associated research.

I have carefully and extensively studied the work of Dean Radin, Micheal Shermer, and James Randi. I made sure to both carefully and completely read the work of Dean Radin, watch all of this lectures that are available online (there are many) , and I made sure to read (from top to bottom) everything Dean Radin has posted on his personal blog and elsewhere.

I have read extensively on a known disorder of the brain called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, and I have combed the literature on how the seizures of that disorder are related to out-of-body experiences (OBEs).

If you do not know who Dean Radin is, and you are not familiar with his work, I respectfully ask that you do not interact with me on this subject matter. Respectfully, because if you are not familiar with Radin, you simply have not done your homework on this subject.

So stop trolling. Stop calling me out with challenges, and go read a book. Not sure which book to read? Here, let me help you:

http://www.amazon.com/Sensory-Noetic-Co ... 0710004044
http://www.amazon.com/Noetic-Universe-D ... 0552162353
http://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Minds-E ... 416516778/
http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Univers ... 061778990/
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Scien ... 30798690X/

[Cerveny]

I'm sorry. Seems to be some confusion. You assumed that I don't have knowledge of the entire body of paranormal pheneomena. You are wrong. I am extensively familiar with it and its associated research.

I have carefully and extensively studied the work of Dean Radin, Micheal Shermer, and James Randi. I made sure to both carefully and completely read the work of Dean Radin, watch all of this lectures that are available online (there are many) , and I made sure to read (from top to bottom) everything Dean Radin has posted on his personal blog and elsewhere.

I have read extensively on a known disorder of the brain called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, and I have combed the literature on how the seizures of that disorder are related to out-of-body experiences (OBEs).

If you do not know who Dean Radin is, and you are not familiar with his work, I respectfully ask that you do not interact with me on this subject matter. Respectfully, because if you are not familiar with Radin, you simply have not done your homework on this subject.

So stop trolling. Stop calling me out with challenges, and go read a book. Not sure which book to read? Here, let me help you:

http://www.amazon.com/Sensory-Noetic-Co ... 0710004044
http://www.amazon.com/Noetic-Universe-D ... 0552162353
http://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Minds-E ... 416516778/
http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Univers ... 061778990/
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Scien ... 30798690X/

I have not read it but I'm kind of on your side - as you can see:) viewtopic.php?p=144074#p144074

[Arising_uk]

So do you KNOW what is that little thing you feel inside when you feel... You?

I don't 'feel' me, I am me.

Have you solved the mysteries of consciousness?

What mystery? Do you not think yourself conscious?

[Cerveny]

...
So stop trolling. Stop calling me out with challenges, and go read a book. Not sure which book to read? Here, let me help you:

http://www.amazon.com/Sensory-Noetic-Co ... 0710004044
http://www.amazon.com/Noetic-Universe-D ... 0552162353
http://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Minds-E ... 416516778/
http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Univers ... 061778990/
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Scien ... 30798690X/

Try "Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy and Oriental Occultism" http://archive.org/details/advancedcoursein00rama, it is one of the best :)

[skakos]

Actually it is you who have decided not to answer to an extremely interesting topic just because you are afraid of the possible answer. Not too scientific attitude if you ask me...

I'm sorry. Seems to be some confusion. You assumed that I don't have knowledge of the entire body of paranormal pheneomena. You are wrong. I am extensively familiar with it and its associated research.

I have carefully and extensively studied the work of Dean Radin, Micheal Shermer, and James Randi. I made sure to both carefully and completely read the work of Dean Radin, watch all of this lectures that are available online (there are many) , and I made sure to read (from top to bottom) everything Dean Radin has posted on his personal blog and elsewhere.

I have read extensively on a known disorder of the brain called Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, and I have combed the literature on how the seizures of that disorder are related to out-of-body experiences (OBEs).

If you do not know who Dean Radin is, and you are not familiar with his work, I respectfully ask that you do not interact with me on this subject matter. Respectfully, because if you are not familiar with Radin, you simply have not done your homework on this subject.

So stop trolling. Stop calling me out with challenges, and go read a book. Not sure which book to read? Here, let me help you:

http://www.amazon.com/Sensory-Noetic-Co ... 0710004044
http://www.amazon.com/Noetic-Universe-D ... 0552162353
http://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Minds-E ... 416516778/
http://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Univers ... 061778990/
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Scien ... 30798690X/

"Go study" is not an answer.
It is a sophistry.
I am here to discuss. Not to listen to someone who does not want to discuss and simply wants to "play teacher".
I am not here to compare knowledge certificates. I am here to speak, listen you speak and discuss. As simple as that.
Anything else is just a low-level trick to avoid discussion.

Be honest in your confrontations.
Do not try to pass like an authority.
I do not care about what you claim to be or have read. I care about what you say here.

If NDEs have teached you something, what could that be if not that consciousness is not produced by the brain?

PS. And no, I did not assume anything. I just discuss.

[skakos]

So do you KNOW what is that little thing you feel inside when you feel... You?

I don't 'feel' me, I am me.

Have you solved the mysteries of consciousness?

What mystery? Do you not think yourself conscious?

My question was simple: Do you believe consciosuness is produced by the brain? Do you have evidence for that claim? Do you believe you have solved the consciousness problem which baffles scientists?

[Arising_uk]

My question was simple: Do you believe consciosuness is produced by the brain? ...

No, I told you, 'brain' is a misnomer in my opinion, I think consciousness is the product of having a body with senses in an external world and I think a body needs to have a CNS of a certain complexity to have the consciousness that we do and I tend to suspect(if you and are I are talking about self-consciousness here) that it also needs to be two bodys that recognise each other and have a language to truly make the consciousness that is us.

Do you have evidence for that claim? ...

None other than just being one and what I appear to be is a body in an external world that recognises others and can talk about it.

Do you believe you have solved the consciousness problem which baffles scientists?

I think they haven't yet framed the questions in the way that their methodology can answer them.

[Kuznetzova]

Dean Radin is the central figure in all published research on paranormal psychology. I became very familiar with him, when studying and following his work with a clear conscience and an innocent curiosity. Even then, I do not find his work convincing, particularly in those places where there is a demand that fundamental laws of physics are violated. In an ideal world we would take each claim of Radin one-by-one, and remain focused. ( rather than just blasting the issue with catch-all summaries and ranting.)

You should read about what people with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy experience during seizures. They are identical to OBEs. There is simply no reason to think that OBEs (and associated NDEs) stand as evidence of anything supernatural.

[Ginkgo]

Dean Radin is the central figure in all published research on paranormal psychology. I became very familiar with him, when studying and following his work with a clear conscience and an innocent curiosity. Even then, I do not find his work convincing, particularly in those places where there is a demand that fundamental laws of physics are violated. In an ideal world we would take each claim of Radin one-by-one, and remain focused. ( rather than just blasting the issue with catch-all summaries and ranting.)

You should read about what people with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy experience during seizures. They are identical to OBEs. There is simply no reason to think that OBEs (and associated NDEs) stand as evidence of anything supernatural.

I think it is good to have a healthy skepticism when there is a perfectly good mainstream scientific explanation for NDE and other supernatural explanations. Having said that it is interesting to speculate as to the role quantum mechanics and its associated philosophical perspectives might bring to NDE.