Is spacetime a "substance" or not?

[Kuznetzova]

From the point of view of science and of philosophy, all of the above are completely inept. What is your evidence that any of it applies to me? Can you construct a logical argument to demonstrate that it must?

Now you are having a full-blown reading comprehension problem. Let me try to draw this up for you so that it is redundantly clear what I actually said.

Let R1 denote this sentence:

R1 = "I refuse to speculate because metaphysics is hogwash and I choose to remain skeptical"

Let M7 denote this sentence:

M7 = "I would ask why are you responding to threads in the metaphysics section of a philosophy forum"

Now follow this slowly because it gets a little tricky. What I actually said to you was a syllogism. A syllogism takes this form:

If P then Q.

What my post actually said was the following,

If tillingborn responds to me with R1, then I will M7. (If P then Q)

Substituting and expanding, we get

If tilligborn responds to me with "I refuse to speculate because metaphysics is hogwash and I choose to remain skeptical", I will ask tillingborn why he has responded to threads in the metaphysics section of a philosophy forum.

Now please take a moment to review above in this thread and confirm for yourself that this is indeed what I actually posted.

At this point, I would be shocked if you cannot follow the conversation, considering how obviously clear I have made it. (Unless that is, you are stoned, high, or haven't slept). You have some choices. One, you can tell me that you are not saying R1 to begin with. (But you haven't). Or you can be clear and admit outrightly that you are saying R1, and that therefore my question M7 stands directed to you, and I would expect an answer from you -- and a serious one.


In summary, if you are saying that metaphysics is useless speculative hogwash, then tell us all why you are here responding to threads. It's just that clear.

[Kuznetzova]

If on the other hand this is going to be an examination of my supposed intellectual weaknesses, I might choose to kick your cerebral butt, more likely you can kiss my philosophical arse goodbye.

Suddenly and jarringly your response turns towards the personal. A passerby to this thread may be lead to believe that I have personally attacked you in some way. I will prove that this did not happen. Let me show you what I actually asked you above, that in some strange way, caused you to explode into a personal tirade about yourself,

I realize equations are created by human beings and they are "Kantian ideas" in their minds. I understand and appreciate that fact fully. But how is it that these equations so precisely predict what is actually measured? Accident? Coincidence?

There is nothing personal about that question at all. It is fair, on-topic, relevant and succinct. (look at the title of this thread!) Einstein was reasoning about geometry, coordinates, and their transformations. His theory of General Relativity, born of those acts of reasoning, was able to accurately predict the behavior of the physical world. These facts cannot be denied. I would prefer that your response attempt to answer the question I have posed to you. If you cannot handle this question emotionally or personally, feel free to not respond. Another personal tirade is not constructive for either one of us.

[tillingborn]

You seem reasonably well informed, so I presume you have heard of confirmation bias. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this:

Now follow this slowly because it gets a little tricky. What I actually said to you was a syllogism. A syllogism takes this form:

If P then Q.

A syllogism has at least two premises, if P then Q is a conditional. Whatever you are trying to say about the quotes you opted to cite, the following are neither syllogisms nor even conditionals:

How can you stand there and say there is zero connection between the geometry of the equations and the actual extended geometry of spacetime (that thing out there in the world) ?

"Because I'm a skeptic and your logic is wonky" is not going to be a persuasive answer to any of those questions. Sorry.

I honestly don't think that blank can be filled in with "because I am a solipsist who does not believe in science" - or some variation of that stance. I get my fill of that type of stoner philosophy enough in chat rooms.

I have not said any of the above, they are all straw men.

At this point, I would be shocked if you cannot follow the conversation, considering how obviously clear I have made it. (Unless that is, you are stoned, high, or haven't slept).

This again is scientifically and philosophically inept for the same reasons.

You have some choices. One, you can tell me that you are not saying R1 ("I refuse to speculate because metaphysics is hogwash and I choose to remain skeptical") to begin with. (But you haven't).

But I have.

Common sense certainly does dictate this, kuznetzova, however in this situation there is a more subtle hook because material monism as I have outlined it is a metaphysical world view.

Or you can be clear and admit outrightly that you are saying R1, and that therefore my question M7 stands directed to you, and I would expect an answer from you -- and a serious one.

See above.
Do you wish to talk about spacetime or not?

[Kuznetzova]

tillingborn,

Explain Galactic Redshift to the forum. But make sure to not refer to space , or spacetime, as a substance. You have the mic.

[Hjarloprillar]

"If on the other hand this is going to be an examination of my supposed intellectual weaknesses, I might choose to kick your cerebral butt, more likely you can kiss my philosophical arse goodbye."

i agree with kuz . did you suffer a bad toilet moment and then post as a p****.?
I see no reason in kuznetzovas posts for such a comment.
big brother is watching. i read a lot and the posts here are real life. great stuff.

act like a human. not a

[tillingborn]

tillingborn,

Explain Galactic Redshift to the forum. But make sure to not refer to space , or spacetime, as a substance. You have the mic.

This is more or less what I have already said: Galactic red shift is believed to be caused by the Doppler Effect. It is the same phenomenon that makes the pitch of a fire engine siren rise and fall as it rushes towards and then away from you. When a fire engine goes dee, if it is approaching, by the time it goes dah, it will be a bit closer, so the dah doesn't have so far to travel. The result is that the sound waves are bunched up, they arrive at you more frequently; this increase in frequency is interpreted as a rise in pitch. Exactly the opposite happens if the fire engine is receding.
The same effect occurs with light, but in this instance the decrease in frequency moves everything towards the longer, redder end of the spectrum. The difference is that sound waves are known to move through a substance, the ones we hear travel through air generally. Light can be thought of as a stream of photons, but assuming the frequency of emission is constant, the same thing happens.

[tillingborn]

Explain Galactic Redshift to the forum. But make sure to not refer to space , or spacetime, as a substance.

Bit of an odd condition to impose given that I have stated my opinion on material monism and aether theories.
Anyway, how'd I do?

Hjaroprillar, I'd be very disappointed if I didn't upset at least some of the contributors.

[Hjarloprillar]

Explain Galactic Redshift to the forum. But make sure to not refer to space , or spacetime, as a substance.

Bit of an odd condition to impose given that I have stated my opinion on material monism and aether theories.
Anyway, how'd I do?

Hjaroprillar, I'd be very disappointed if I didn't upset at least some of the contributors.

sweet.

Any good idea is going to upset many. that is a given . given humanity. lol

I posted just an hour ago on military history forum that germans are and have always been better engineers than americans. mien gott
the wave of fury from us is hilarious

the bucket is too easy to kick. humanities belief, too easy to foil.
it suggests we fool ourselves..

[Kuznetzova]

(for those of you who "refuse to click links" , this is what you are missing)

What is space? What is time? Do they exist independently of the things and processes in them? Or is their existence parasitic on these things and processes? Are they like a canvas onto which an artist paints; they exist whether or not the artist paints on them? Or are they akin to parenthood; there is no parenthood until there are parents and children? That is, is there no space and time until there are things with spatial properties and processes with temporal durations?

These questions have long been debated and continue to be debated. The hole argument arose when these questions were asked in the context of modern spacetime physics. In that context, space and time are fused into a single entity, spacetime, and we inquire into its status. One view is that spacetime is a substance, a thing that exists independently of the processes occurring within spacetime. This is spacetime substantivalism. The hole argument seeks to show that this viewpoint leads to unpalatable conclusions in a large class of spacetime theories. Spacetime substantivalism requires that we ascribe such a surfeit of properties to spacetime that neither observation nor even the laws of the relevant spacetime theory itself can determine which are the correct ones. Such abundance is neither logically contradictory nor refuted by experience. But there must be some bounds on how rich a repertoire of hidden properties can be ascribed to spacetime. The hole argument urges that spacetime substantivalism goes beyond those bounds.

Then this goes on for several chapters, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spacetime-holearg/

[tillingborn]

Thank you for the link Kuznetzova. Presumably the hole argument is your position. Could you explain the attraction? What about red shift?

[Hjarloprillar]

space is made of cheese.

i thought everyone knew that.

[Kuznetzova]

Ninja Mod is deleting posts so fast that I'm losing track of conversations on this forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the thread where Hjarlo elaborated on this face-sitting fantasy with the flow into the ears?

Anyways, I sent a private message about this to Hjarlo, but Ninja Mod reached his sneaky hands into the PM system and deleted all that correspondence as well. I have made coherent complaints about how this entire forum is being moderated, and several regulars read those threads and responded. Hours later, the entire thread vanishes never to be seen again.

What bothers me now, is that I cannot even share an email address with any user on this forum in order to contact that person outside the forum. I guess my main point of this post is that there is nothing in the rules of this forum that dictates users are not allowed to share contact information in the PM system.

This means, currently I have been placed under a different set of rules specially-made for Kuznetzova and nobody else. On top of this, I am receiving nothing from any moderator as far as direct complaints.

[Hjarloprillar]

Ninja Mod is deleting posts so fast that I'm losing track of conversations on this forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the thread where Hjarlo elaborated on this face-sitting fantasy with the flow into the ears?

Anyways, I sent a private message about this to Hjarlo, but Ninja Mod reached his sneaky hands into the PM system and deleted all that correspondence as well. I have made coherent complaints about how this entire forum is being moderated, and several regulars read those threads and responded. Hours later, the entire thread vanishes never to be seen again.

What bothers me now, is that I cannot even share an email address with any user on this forum in order to contact that person outside the forum. I guess my main point of this post is that there is nothing in the rules of this forum that dictates users are not allowed to share contact information in the PM system.

This means, currently I have been placed under a different set of rules specially-made for Kuznetzova and nobody else. On top of this, I am receiving nothing from any moderator as far as direct complaints.

I dont think i've ever been so cras.. if i had i would EXPECT mods to delete post..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGguwYPC32I wish he was my son.

kuz my daughter is pschologist.. she scans my posts.. and ... found no goum in ears.. aere you making that up?
provide example.
[then again while she was asleep i may have 'dreamed of meg ryan sitting on my face]
in fact i think only true thing said here is moderators have power.

logical?

if if you think you are victemised i'll back you to hilt..

2 is more than one. the mods can threaen.. but in end can only
ban.. oh god i'll die lol
there are 100 other forums out there. this is # 59 for me.
if mods have integrity. they need to display it or be labled little penis iosif stalins

[Kuznetzova]

I guess what we need to try is have you send me YOUR email, and use the PM system to do it.

Then we can meet back here to see if Ninja Mod has interfered with the correspondence. Call it a little test.

[AMod]

Kuznetzova,

...
Anyways, I sent a private message about this to Hjarlo, but Ninja Mod reached his sneaky hands into the PM system and deleted all that correspondence as well. ...

The moderators do not have this ability.

What bothers me now, is that I cannot even share an email address with any user on this forum in order to contact that person outside the forum. I guess my main point of this post is that there is nothing in the rules of this forum that dictates users are not allowed to share contact information in the PM system.

You are free to share what you wish with the PM system. Unless of course the receiver complains or it turns out to be illegal.

This means, currently I have been placed under a different set of rules specially-made for Kuznetzova and nobody else. On top of this, I am receiving nothing from any moderator as far as direct complaints.

You are paranoid or you are just trying to shit-stir.

From the sounds of it you just haven't understood how to use the PM function.

AMod.