Basic Income

[Lark]

http://basicincome2013.eu/ubi/

I dont think I posted about this before, what do you think about the idea of a basic income to all citizens replacing all welfare in cash or kind/services?

I've read about it as a cash payment, paid annually or more frequently, even a combination of both, some citizens qualifying for the single payments others for the more frequent ones but the payment amounting to the same amount of money over all.

Alternatively, there is the idea that all "necessities of life", so a basic nutritional diet, basic accomodation or shelter, first aid etc. would be provided free of charge at the point of service to all citizens as required but nothing else, no monetary transfers involved what so ever. However, a "basic life" is guaranteed.

This is not a politically left wing issue, or at least it hasnt been exclusively for some time, because some free market theorists are happy with the balance of expenses involved in the transfers involved basic income being cheaper than those involved in the mixed delivery of a variety of benefits and services, including corporate responsibilities to the public as service users and employees.

Charles Murray, the right wing author of books about the emergence of a benefits dependent underclass, has supported the idea in its single annual payments format, although has stated that he does so because he believes that the exhaustion of funds likely to transpire for many of those receiving the money and incapable or unwilling to engage in good personal budgeting and fiscal management will mean that they fall upon the resources of their families and not the resources of tax paying society or community at large.

For the left wing pundits that I've read it is a guarantee of freedom and acknowledgement of the involiability of life and free choice. Should individuals elect to dedicate themselves to study, their own projects, social service, co-operative initiatives, whatever, they are free to do so without the need to earn a living first.

Both political persuasions are in agreement that it is a basic income though, individuals are free to top up the income if they so wish to do so and how they so wish to do so. There's a variety of other ideas which attach themselves to the basic income idea too, like basic income and a flat tax, basic income and the single taxers (ie sales or rent taxation), basic income and socialisation of land (geolibertarianism) or precious/scarce social goods (ecolibertarianism/conservationism), basic income and progressive taxation or redistribution of wealth. So there remains grounds for political difference or contest should there ever be a consensus on making basic income available.

[bobevenson]

The government can provide any number of benefits to its citizens. However, it is improper to single out certain citizens for certain benefits. Everybody must be treated equally in a free society. The problem is that by providing too many benefits, the tax rate will go up accordingly, and even under the only proper form of taxation, which is a single tax on property, property being defined as anything with an intrinsic market value, taxes will eventually become too oppressive to maintain.

[Lark]

The government can provide any number of benefits to its citizens. However, it is improper to single out certain citizens for certain benefits. Everybody must be treated equally in a free society. The problem is that by providing too many benefits, the tax rate will go up accordingly, and even under the only proper form of taxation, which is a single tax on property, property being defined as anything with an intrinsic market value, taxes will eventually become too oppressive to maintain.

Did you read the material available on basic income by following the link?

[bobevenson]

Yes, I saw the link, but again, it is improper for the government to steal money from Bob to give to Bill, unless you want to live under a communistic or socialistic government that through the years has proven itself unworkable due to being diametrically opposed to human nature.

[The Voice of Time]

I was about to sign, when I suddenly remembered that I'm not an EU citizen but Norwegian x) After that I also realized I didn't actually know what I was signing... what's the difference between basic income and let's say minimum wages or support funds from government organizations?

We don't have minimum wages in Norway, but there are plenty of mechanisms for "de facto" minimum wages. Nearly all jobs are tariffed, meaning they are regulated by large scale "union - employer organization" deals. High cash flows through society supports a generally high income level as well. NAV, the organization for issues of work, unemployment, pension and the likes, spends about one third of the vast central budget to redistribute among society. I myself receive now slightly more than 2000 dollars a month for visiting a psychiatrist once every 2 weeks, all the rest of the time I do nothing.

Yesterday I spent some of my first loads of that cash on a new 42 inch samsung smart tv with full HD, and a samsung Galaxy Express smartphone, as well as an ingenious mobile good quality mini-speaker for my phone, so I can listen to music as I enjoy the sunsets at the rocky beaches not too far from the house I share with 3 other guys I feel sorry for all those hard-working underpaid Hungarians who sweated for me to be able to watch on an awesome tv. And how many Chinese or North-Koreans who worked for me to be able to enjoy my samsung galaxy express! And here my only work seems to be to eat candy... what a strange world it is.

[bobevenson]

Any government that does not allow free trade and has tariffs and import restrictions is an oppressive government that should be overthrown. International trade agreements are a cruel joke played on the naive. Any country in its own best interest should allow unfettered international trade, and it doesn't matter whether other governments manipulate their currency, dump products on your market at less than manufacturing cost, or restrict your products from being imported into their country. If you don't understand this, stay away from the subject of economics.

[henry quirk]

I'm all for any Joe or Josephine havin' a "Basic Income".

Most folks get such a thing by 'working', or having a 'job'.

Some of those workin' folks do what I do: self-employ.

Now: if Joe or Josephine is gettin' a check from me or you (directly, or by way of the government), solely because her or she exists (and not because he or she provides a service or product), this, to my mind, is not 'income' but a 'subsidy' or a 'stipend' or an 'allowance'.

Children get 'allowances'.

If adults are happy with the notion of being treated as children (and they can get *gullible folks to agree to such a thing), then: collect the money and stay on the playground.

Myself: not gullible; not droppin' a dime into a stunted adult's hand.









*for some folks it's not about bein' gullible but about bein' mercenary...get a whack of voters hooked on stipends and those dumb fuckers will keep votin' you (and yours) into office for years, for decades...

[tillingborn]

Any government that does not allow free trade and has tariffs and import restrictions is an oppressive government that should be overthrown.

Is a government more or less oppressive if it does what you believe rather than what the electorate chooses?

[bobevenson]

Any government that does not allow free trade and has tariffs and import restrictions is an oppressive government that should be overthrown.

Is a government more or less oppressive if it does what you believe rather than what the electorate chooses?

I've never heard of an electorate dictating or voting on foreign trade policy. However, it is a violation of human rights for the government to restrict foreign trade in any way.

[John K]

it is improper for the government to steal money from Bob to give to Bill...

But I'll bet Bill would love it.

[bobevenson]

it is improper for the government to steal money from Bob to give to Bill...

But I'll bet Bill would love it.

Yes, he's a left-wing dyed-in-the-wool unionist who believes from each according to his featherbedding abilities, and to each according to his featherbedding needs.

[Arising_uk]

Yes, he's a left-wing dyed-in-the-wool unionist who believes from each according to his featherbedding abilities, and to each according to his featherbedding needs.

Ah! But this depends upon your view of human nature. If you think that all are like you, i.e. motivated by greed and laziness then the phrase, "From each each according to his ability, to each according to their needs" is a horror story. But of course this depends upon whether the problem of scarce and unevenly distributed resources has been solved for the near future.

[Arising_uk]

Hi Lark,

http://basicincome2013.eu/ubi/

I dont think I posted about this before, what do you think about the idea of a basic income to all citizens replacing all welfare in cash or kind/services? ...

Personally I like this approach to the issues of the welfare state and benefit dependency to nations that wish to have such a thing as welfare in a global capitalist world.

Are you a UK subject? If so PM me if you wish to discuss how we could go about instigating such a policy.
A_uk

[tillingborn]

However, it is a violation of human rights for the government to restrict foreign trade in any way.

Most governments restrict foreign trade in slaves. Is that a violation of human rights?

[bobevenson]

However, it is a violation of human rights for the government to restrict foreign trade in any way.

Most governments restrict foreign trade in slaves. Is that a violation of human rights?

Slavery itself violates human rights. As you well understand, I'm talking about foreign goods and services that governments establish tariffs and other restrictions against to shield domestic firms from free-market competition.