Fate

[markopolo]

I read your useful post and thank you...... but twice I have had to draw people back to the question.

I think my care at posting is not the problem but the length to which people critise others off the subject.

I'm aware I my make grammatical errors, and that at times I might may not form a statement perfectly....and I'm aware that my last post, I've even joined in these personal criticisms..lol . But at least I stay on subject. Its a question about belief and people believe in many thing with many positive things contained within them.....why would anyone believe in such a bankrupt idea... 'fate'

[tillingborn]

.....why would anyone believe in such a bankrupt idea... 'fate'

Well, people say things like: 'It wasn't meant to be.' and I do wonder if they have any idea what that entails. I agree with you that the concept of fate is bankrupt, as far as I can tell, it means magic. I have no idea whether people can control their destiny, or if they are subject to the laws of physics. If not, what is mind/consciousness made of, and how does it interact with the rest of the universe?

[The Voice of Time]

Silly thing to say. It would seem that you and he want your own language

NO YOU DON'T GET IT! I give a fuck about words! Words are tools for pointing, now even if I had a slight difference between what I mean and what you mean I don't want to invent a new word every fuckings time that happens, and that's neither how it is, and differences in meaning happens a lot with EVERYBODY, nobody excluded!. You ever wondered why dictionaries have several suggested meanings? Because people are like me: they don't give a fuck, and neither should you. If people find a word useful, they'll use it: that's what words are for.

Imagine me trying to tell you what world of warcraft is like, the computer game. If I told you it was an MMORPG, do you think the dictionary would really let you know what an MMORPG "is like"? It would tell you that MMORPG is a "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game", however, it would NOT tell you, that once you started playing it, Massive is subjective, Multiplayer only occurs under the right circumstances and sometimes you'll have to play alone, Online is also not always imperative as the game might have offline content, Role-Playing is neither a necessary feature, because even if you'd be bound to play some kind of fictional role, that role doesn't mean you are part of a story necessarily other than as "soldier x", an unknown person with no specified link to the story, and neither does it mean you always play Role-Playing with the rest of the players, in fact, you rarely ever do, and usually only specific servers are dedicated towards this.

If I talk about fate, then fate is a typical example of a word which only has personal meanings because it's made and shaped by its users, not by its observers (unless they are also its users). You can introduce all sorts of meanings into what fate is for you or me or anyone else, and that's what it'll be for each and every one. If you find my version a good choice, you'll use it, if you find another person's version useful, you'll use that. The dictionary doesn't even have a version, because it doesn't tell you what "it's like", you need another human being or medium (a movie perhaps, a piece of music) that helps you discover for yourself what fate implies. And when you've gotten the hang of it, you need to experience it for yourself to become a user of it. At that point of time, you are a worthy individual to talk about fate, before that time, you have as much authority to talk about it like a person wanting to talk about the taste of apple without ever having tasted it himself.

[The Voice of Time]

But the fact that you're missing the true meaning of 'Fate,' still stands.

My simple answer is no, I've not missed it for an inch. If I need to know the government-approved standard meaning of a word, I'll pick up a dictionary, but until that point, I'll talk about things for what they are in the real world, as opposed to the paper-world.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Silly thing to say. It would seem...

To whom? Have you conferred with anyone else on this matter, or does your thinking so makes it objectively true?
Yes, of course, I have sought evidence.

...that you and he want your own language,

Would that be one each, or a mutual language that only Voice and myself can communicate in?
You tell me, but to deny definitions is idiotic as then one cannot convey meaning, with certainty.

...good luck with that, and actually conveying anything to anyone other than him.

You appear to understand us remarkably well.
And how could it be truly ascertained that anyone here actually understands any other one here, 100%?

Dictionaries are there for "standardizations" sake, so that "ALL" can understand,

Dictionaries are subject to constant revision, because new words are introduced and the way words are used changes.
Tell me something I don't know, please?

Have a go at reading Chaucer if you are unaware how much English has evolved. If you'd prefer a simpler challenge, perhaps you could consider whether colour and color mean the same.
We can nitpick all we like, but I happen to think that language is meaningless without context.
This comment is totally stupid. I can create a list of words without any context, but I defy you to convey context without any words. Context is merely any particular group of words. The grouping creates the context. There can be absolutely no context without particular words, that mean particular things, arranged in a particular order. Change any of the elements and context changes. Which is why using words of "specific" meaning is so important.


I would go further and argue that it is demonstrably so; something that a good dictionary acknowledges by giving examples of usage.
That's more about meaning than context, though it's true that context is present, it's to drive the meaning home.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Silly thing to say. It would seem that you and he want your own language

NO YOU DON'T GET IT! I give a fuck about words!
You sound like an idiot with this sentence. As words are all one has here in this medium. Now if we were face to face we could make gestures with our bodies, i.e., eyes, forehead, mouth, nose, hands, body position, basically it's called: Body Language. But here, are you kidding me? You could give a fuck about words? You sound like a loon.

Words are tools for pointing,
And you're pointing in the wrong direction, with your usage of the word fate, at least how you define it.

now even if I had a slight difference between what I mean and what you mean I don't want to invent a new word every fuckings time that happens, and that's neither how it is, and differences in meaning happens a lot with EVERYBODY, nobody excluded!. You ever wondered why dictionaries have several suggested meanings?
They are ranked according to the most accurate meaning. The first is the foremost/original meaning, as you descend they become less and less so, sometimes to include slang. If you look closely enough, you'll find that all the defs are extremely close to meaning the same thing. Sometimes specifics are addressed for a particular field of study. But your def of fate was out of the ball park, meaning something completely different, which shall always lead people astray, unless you recite your def every single time, you use it as you do, which is contrary to what the single word is for, which is to concisely say, in one word, that which encompasses many words.

Because people are like me: they don't give a fuck, and neither should you. If people find a word useful, they'll use it: that's what words are for.
Incorrect!!! Did you attend any real school at all, or are you completely self taught? If you attended a real school, until what grade did you attend?


Imagine me trying to tell you what world of warcraft is like, the computer game. If I told you it was an MMORPG, do you think the dictionary would really let you know what an MMORPG "is like"? It would tell you that MMORPG is a "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game", however, it would NOT tell you, that once you started playing it, Massive is subjective, Multiplayer only occurs under the right circumstances and sometimes you'll have to play alone, Online is also not always imperative as the game might have offline content, Role-Playing is neither a necessary feature, because even if you'd be bound to play some kind of fictional role, that role doesn't mean you are part of a story necessarily other than as "soldier x", an unknown person with no specified link to the story, and neither does it mean you always play Role-Playing with the rest of the players, in fact, you rarely ever do, and usually only specific servers are dedicated towards this.
Incorrect!! That's like denying the definition of life, or any other word, because tomorrow the earth explodes and is no more. So what, that things change, or that we have drawn a distinction between an abridged and unabridged dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a complete course of study on any particular subject. It shall all change tomorrow, as we all die, so lets call a cat a mouse, and a car a crowbar. Your logic is that of a lazy person, that doesn't want to learn of whats proper in the now, because tomorrow it may change.
A MMORPG is still a "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game," though it's really not a word at all, rather an acronym! If one requires those words to be defined, then off to the dictionary they go again. And if they still don't get all the subtleties, in one word so what, tell me one thing that is encapsulated complete in any single word so that anyone may understand it in it's completeness.

If I talk about fate, then fate is a typical example of a word which only has personal meanings because it's made and shaped by its users, not by its observers (unless they are also its users). You can introduce all sorts of meanings into what fate is for you or me or anyone else, and that's what it'll be for each and every one. If you find my version a good choice, you'll use it, if you find another person's version useful, you'll use that. The dictionary doesn't even have a version, because it doesn't tell you what "it's like", you need another human being or medium (a movie perhaps, a piece of music) that helps you discover for yourself what fate implies. And when you've gotten the hang of it, you need to experience it for yourself to become a user of it. At that point of time, you are a worthy individual to talk about fate, before that time, you have as much authority to talk about it like a person wanting to talk about the taste of apple without ever having tasted it himself.
Wrong again, communication is to CONVEY IDEAS, not keep it to yourself. If one uses a word incorrectly, they FAIL at conveying their meaning, pure and simple. So one might as well just sit in a corner mumbling to themselves, all kinds of fictitious sounds, that mean nothing to anyone but themselves, because it makes no difference either way, as no one would understand, except themselves.

[SpheresOfBalance]

But the fact that you're missing the true meaning of 'Fate,' still stands.

My simple answer is no, I've not missed it for an inch. If I need to know the government-approved standard meaning of a word, I'll pick up a dictionary, but until that point, I'll talk about things for what they are in the real world, as opposed to the paper-world.

Yes you have!! It's about conveying meaning to another, that which is in your mind, and you cannot achieve that, unless you use words as understood by those you're trying to share it with, pure and simple I could care less if you don't like it, as it's a fact!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Fate is:
fate [feyt] noun, verb, fat·ed, fat·ing.
noun
1. something that unavoidably befalls a person; fortune; lot: It is always his fate to be left behind.
2. the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time: Fate decreed that they would never meet again.
3. that which is inevitably predetermined; destiny: Death is our ineluctable fate.
4. a prophetic declaration of what must be: The oracle pronounced their fate.
5. death, destruction, or ruin.
6. the Fates, Classical Mythology . the three goddesses of destiny, known to the Greeks as the Moerae and to the Romans as the Parcae

verb (used with object)
7. to predetermine, as by the decree of fate; destine (used in the passive): a person who was fated to be the savior of the country.

Obviously, the main point here, as to fate, is something that is unavoidable, that the universal order prescribes, or that it is inevitably predetermined. And that is the crux of the meaning, of the word fate.

Now that we know what we're talking about, if one cares to speak about it in some way as it pertains to other aspects of human existence, then we can go there and discuss the varying views, circumstances, implications, ramifications and so forth.

[Bill Wiltrack]

.


Hello,
My name is Bill; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no negative aspect in such a belief. Anyone fancy a challenge to the contrary?





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[SpheresOfBalance]

.


Hello,
My name is Bill; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no negative aspect in such a belief. Anyone fancy a challenge to the contrary?





............................................




.

I see, and I suspect that your art work had something to do with 'Digital Multimedia as story,' am I right?

As far as challenging your belief, along with that of the OP, as they are surprisingly similar, I'd like to say that I believe that as long as ones belief does not consume ones time, with much worry that fate is around every corner, such that it detracts from a comfortable life, then they should continue to believe. Always remember that it's better to burn out than to fade away.

[Ginkgo]

Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

That's a difficult question to answer. I guess you could start by saying that comparatively speaking fatalism allows for a degree of free will not found in hard determinism.

[Ginkgo]

Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

That's a difficult question to answer. I guess one could start by saying that comparatively speaking fatalism allows for a degree of free will not found in hard determinism. If that can be considered a positive aspect.

[tillingborn]

Silly thing to say. It would seem...

To whom? Have you conferred with anyone else on this matter, or does your thinking so makes it objectively true?

Yes, of course, I have sought evidence.

Fair enough. What did you find and can we see it?

...to deny definitions is idiotic as then one cannot convey meaning, with certainty...And how could it be truly ascertained that anyone here actually understands any other one here, 100%?

I think it is demonstrably the case that we don't.

Tell me something I don't know, please?

You really mean that? Very well: my middle name is John.

We can nitpick all we like, but I happen to think that language is meaningless without context.

This comment is totally stupid.

That’s a bit harsh Spheres, if I didn’t know better, I’d say you were starting an argument rather than presenting an argument.

I can create a list of words without any context,

The context would be that you were making the point that a series of well defined words can be assembled in such a way that they no longer mean anything. Some people will laugh at that.

but I defy you to convey context without any words.

Over to you, Bill Wiltrack!

Context is merely any particular group of words. The grouping creates the context.

My point precisely.

There can be absolutely no context without particular words, that mean particular things, arranged in a particular order. Change any of the elements and context changes. Which is why using words of "specific" meaning is so important.

That's more or less the thinking behind Russell's logical atomism, he let that one drop because he realized that language simply doesn’t work like that. About the only place that meaning is as tightly defined as you appear to believe is in a court of law, where ‘the letter of the law’ is bound up in legalese; it is gibberish to anyone who isn’t an expert and part of the reason you have to pay them so much. The English will take any opportunity to laugh at the French, it’s entirely symbiotic, a favourite target is the ridiculous Academie Francaise, 40 self righteous nincompoops who take it upon themselves to tell the rest of France what words to use; they are widely ignored.

I would go further and argue that it is demonstrably so; something that a good dictionary acknowledges by giving examples of usage.

That's more about meaning than context, though it's true that context is present, it's to drive the meaning home.

As I said to markopolo:

I do suspect that some people believe that language exists in a Platonic realm and that words have an entirely objective meaning.

I rest my case.

[chasw]

Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

Fate is the term people usually apply to their own lives. Some religious sects anguish over the dilemma of free will vs determinism. A more realistic attitude would recognize that all matter, other than living organisms, behaves according to deterministic principles. Human understanding of these principles may be highly incomplete, but most people are convinced the laws of physics truly govern the conservation of matter and energy.

The wild card are the living organisms, particularly higher-order animals who think before they act. For them, determinism does not strictly apply. Yes, if you touch them with a hot iron, they jump but watch a cat strolling through someone's yard, frequently stopping and deciding what to do next, often randomly. Its seems inconceivable the cat is acting strictly according to past and present stimuli, plus instinct. There is way too much randomness for that to be the case, IMO.

So fate is real for inorganic objects, but for human lives it is an illusion. - CW

[Ginkgo]

A good example of fate comes from the old film "Lawrence of Arabia". Lawrence rides back into the desert to save a man who has fallen off his camel. Before he leaves the rest of the party tell Lawrence that he is wasting his time. It is written that the man should die in the desert.Nonetheless, Lawrence decides to rescue the man. When Lawrence brings the man back to the camp and tells everyone they are wrong and there is nothing written.

A short time latter there are problems brewing between factions of the camp because there is a thief among them. As it turns out the thief is the man Lawrence has saved. It also turn out that Lawrence has to execute the thief. It then becomes clear everyone that we are free to make whatever choices we like, but in the end the outcome is already determined.