The universe expands ...

[SpheresOfBalance]

Man cannot know the truth of this question ,,???? , lets be clear what the question is ,
to simply say "does god exist" ,is assuming the definition of god , is a given ,
that we all know what god is ,???
there are as many versions of what god is , as there are versions of the bible , or interpretations of it ,
so I would ask questions like , is a all knowing and all powerful god possible ,???
to the best of my knowledge , NO
and I am somewhat saddened to hear Sphere lacks the knowledge to say the same ,,!!!

Here let me ask you a few things. Are we not here? Do we not consider ourselves intelligent? Do we not create things, life even? Who says it can only happen once? You? What a joke, as you are no more special than any one else. How could you possibly know that our universe isn't in some petri dish in a much larger multiverse. You can't if the truth of it is outside our visual field of view.

But I do agree with one thing you said, that being, that there are multitudes of possibilities as to the truth of a possible creator.[/quote]

Godfree: I don't recall saying such a thing so just to clarify ,

there are as many versions of what god is

This, immediately above then, is that to which I referred. I do believe my quote above in purple serves both my position as an agnostic, of which you're well aware, and your words in green, such that you should be able to understand contextually, and not assume I've decided to renounce Agnosticism without informing you, as it would indeed be pertinent to a conversation if it's cordial flow was to be maintained. Contextually, obviously "version" and "possibilities" mean one and the same thing, neither of our statements lends to credibility. If you are saying that you don't understand the word "possibility" as it pertains to the universe and mans knowledge and thus philosophy, then I'm worried about you. The particular construct of any given century, was determined purely by that of the most popular beliefs, that were a result of the most popular fears or concerns, at the time. They are not necessary a reflection of what necessarily should have been the case, as if that state of the most popular fears, should have necessarily formed that particular state of belief, though it surely set the stage for that particular construct, which in turn affected the new belief of fears, and thus the following ever morphing construct that is mans history.

I see no possibility of a god or gods being real , , and I do not see it possible that there was ever ,
a moment of creation , or a creator ,
You say this using their model of god, thus giving their model credibility, as the only version, the correct version, for such an idea as purposeful creation.

Sanity ,
the universe exists ,
Probability ,
there is more of the same for infinity ,

You can waffle on about as many remote possibilities as you like ,
The waffle is contained in your understanding of my meaning.

my focus is on the most probable ,
According to your limited knowledge, which doesn't necessarily say much of anything.

not the least probable most insane unlikely non scientific nonsense that is religion ,
no , the most probable ,,!!!
Does science know it all? Are humans finished exploring? If you answer no, then there you go!
[/quote]

[SpheresOfBalance]

No, I would have to know "ALL" the specifics surrounding the event, before I'd make such a charge. Context: specific place, time of day, a list of that which you consumed, list of all those present and your relationship to them, medications, all asked, possibly through the use of post hypnotic regression, both types of lie detectors, how bad is sodium thiopental anyway, etc. The point being, much data would be required, before I'd make that decision.

Understandable. I could expand on a multitude of experiences and circumstances of such events...none of which had any 'consumption'...but maybe another day, or year.

Got proof? If no; well then!

[SpheresOfBalance]

As to waffle: Is it that one is vibrating back and forth between multiple potentials, or that the other is incapable of understanding their potential coexistence. Are dichotomies absolute, black and white, or just a scale of continuously variable grey, where black and white are only ever flags signifying the ends of the scale?

I think that most atheists are only capable of arguing the concept of god, as to the classic, age old view, written thousands of years ago. And in so doing are actually stating that there is potential for the dogma being correct, that through entertaining it, they lend credibility to it. Because as to books of reference, of age old copyright, I only ever seek the newest editions. Religion, in and of itself, is not necessarily flawed, however, any particular religion, (version), may be.

The truth of anything, often can only be arrived at, by entertaining these shades of grey, as nothing is actually only ever black and white.

Waffle, may only actually be something to eat for breakfast, as it as least, is concrete, (not a matter of perspective). At least the way I make them.

Waffle in this context , beat about the bush ,,talk at length with few points ,,
As determined by any particular one of specific individual experience.

so lets look at some specifics ,
do you imagine this god is a consciousness , a thinking entity , that has self awareness ,
because if you are going to try and say god is the natural forces ,
thats going back to the beginning when monkey imagined the same ,
so if this god/creator is a thinking being with self awareness ,
where and how does it store it's mind , to wake up the next day and still remember who we are ,
we need to store the information , in a management situation that allows us to ,
control and manipulate these stored memories of who and what we are ,
a brain a computer , something like that , I would imagine a gods one would be very large ,
all knowing is a lot of bites to store ,,where ,
where and how is it stored ,,???
if you don't mind answering a direct question ,where and how please ,
does god store his mind ,,?????
I told you a long time ago "I HATE GOD" and that I only believe in the possibility of a 'creator.' But here are my answers anyway, as if you did not mention mans god, and instead, a creator. I do not know, but I clearly see that you judge the possibility of a creator, of this vast and complex universe, from the perspective of a mere puny mortal man, exactly as those that have created their god, you have created it in your image, as if you could create a universe, how foolish is that? Think pretty highly of yourself, do ya?

[attofishpi]

We are talking about man's comprehension of reality in relation to 'God' so we really should be speaking from a perspective of a 'finite' universe.

The reason i state that is because resources available to man ARE finite. The entropy of our 'system' over time will continue to increase.

Agreed?

Not at all , our "system" isn't increasing now ,
and it will not increase in the future ,
it is already as big as it can get ,
Because some men can't comprehend infinity , they are trapped in finite thinking ,
but you do not speak for me , it is not your job to tell me what I can and can't do ,
it is your job to tell me what YOU can or can't do ,
you can't do infinity , I believe you ,
it does require a solid grasp of logic ,
I was emailed by Micheal Lewis a couple of days ago , invited me to join Linkedin ,
Micheal has a Physics degree and used maths to prove his claim that there was no big bang ,
and the universe is not expanding ,
I got there on logic alone ,
if you understand logic , you can see/imagine infinity ...

My word you are amazing, your perception and sense of logic astounds me and yet you dont seem to be able to apply your skill to the simple use of a forum quote function.
So are you stating that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle in an attempt to completely disregard the points i have made?

[SpheresOfBalance]

In answer to your concern in relation to my use of the word 'WAFFLE'

Dictionary:-
waf·fle2 [wof-uhl] Show IPA verb, waf·fled, waf·fling, noun Informal.
verb (used without object)
1.
to speak or write equivocally: to waffle on an important issue.
verb (used with object)
2.
to speak or write equivocally about: to waffle a campaign promise.
noun
3.
waffling language.
Origin:
1890–95; orig. dial. ( Scots, N England): to wave about, flutter, waver, be hesitant; probably waff + -le


I like clear concise responses to statements, and as such i will provide you to the best of my ability with the same.

attofish stated:-
"So you think it highly unlikely that IF there is a God, that one could know that it exists.....based on this:-"

Since Spheres had wrote:- "Anyone that says they know without providing 'proof' such that another can know, cannot provide 'proof' for themselves to know either, though obviously they may not admit it, such is the convenience that they enjoy!"

attofish stated in response:- "When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?"

Spheres answered with:- "Not at all, the main point is that those that say they know, almost always insist they speak to him, and of course they're always alone, yeah right! OK, I 'know' there are aliens. Are you OK with that? Do you now believe that there are aliens? Does the fact that I say I know, indicate such? Because you don't know, and I say I know, showing no proof, does it mean that I can't know? So where does both our stories get us? Anyone can say anything! And many usually do, usually for the sake of attention. Do you seek attention?"
AND...
"My point, while I was not ready to call you insane, as you originally feared, know that the mind can do many things, dreams versus reality, and recall after much time and age comes to mind. Getting a bad mushroom, or being unknowingly dosed by a foolish practical joker, also comes to mind, but there are many others. You do know that people eating rye grain that was tainted with a purple glow, that as a result could do things ahead of their time, were burnt as witches, right? Of course, they might also have seen pink elephants, flying in the sky as well, I know some that say they have. The point being that there is no necessary accounting for what people may think they know. However, the more that witness any event, the more credible it becomes, barring some organized conspiracy."

Now if that doesnt constitute waffle then we may as well cease conversation. Where did you ever get the idea that i ""feared"" you calling me insane?...
You said so.

If you actually KNOW there are aliens, then f**ing say so, i shan't call you a liar for lack of proof . Witches, rye, mushrooms?
I assumed you knew the history, and that you'd ask if not, my mistake, there's probably quite a lot you don't know, just like me.

Dont insinuate that because i claim to know there is a God, that i am saying it as some kind of whim,
Never said you did!

or making up lies as to answer your CHEAP SHOT at suggesting i am an attention seeker.
Simply asked you a question!

"When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?"
To which you answered with:- "Not at all,"
WRONG!! Now you're actually making shit up.


I actually agree...i dont think you are rational enough to see the obvious flaw in your logic...
And I see that you are not rational enough to understand what logic is.


Comprende?
Comprendre?

You statements in response to mine were waffle ---- borderline burnt toast at best.
You speak to yourself in your mirror. It is very possible indeed, that you are quite insane, as evidenced by your hearing of voices, that are not mine.

[attofishpi]

In answer to your concern in relation to my use of the word 'WAFFLE'

Dictionary:-
waf·fle2 [wof-uhl] Show IPA verb, waf·fled, waf·fling, noun Informal.
verb (used without object)
1.
to speak or write equivocally: to waffle on an important issue.
verb (used with object)
2.
to speak or write equivocally about: to waffle a campaign promise.
noun
3.
waffling language.
Origin:
1890–95; orig. dial. ( Scots, N England): to wave about, flutter, waver, be hesitant; probably waff + -le


I like clear concise responses to statements, and as such i will provide you to the best of my ability with the same.

attofish stated:-
"So you think it highly unlikely that IF there is a God, that one could know that it exists.....based on this:-"

Since Spheres had wrote:- "Anyone that says they know without providing 'proof' such that another can know, cannot provide 'proof' for themselves to know either, though obviously they may not admit it, such is the convenience that they enjoy!"

attofish stated in response:- "When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?"

Spheres answered with:- "Not at all, the main point is that those that say they know, almost always insist they speak to him, and of course they're always alone, yeah right! OK, I 'know' there are aliens. Are you OK with that? Do you now believe that there are aliens? Does the fact that I say I know, indicate such? Because you don't know, and I say I know, showing no proof, does it mean that I can't know? So where does both our stories get us? Anyone can say anything! And many usually do, usually for the sake of attention. Do you seek attention?"
AND...
"My point, while I was not ready to call you insane, as you originally feared, know that the mind can do many things, dreams versus reality, and recall after much time and age comes to mind. Getting a bad mushroom, or being unknowingly dosed by a foolish practical joker, also comes to mind, but there are many others. You do know that people eating rye grain that was tainted with a purple glow, that as a result could do things ahead of their time, were burnt as witches, right? Of course, they might also have seen pink elephants, flying in the sky as well, I know some that say they have. The point being that there is no necessary accounting for what people may think they know. However, the more that witness any event, the more credible it becomes, barring some organized conspiracy."

Now if that doesnt constitute waffle then we may as well cease conversation. Where did you ever get the idea that i ""feared"" you calling me insane?...
You said so.

If you actually KNOW there are aliens, then f**ing say so, i shan't call you a liar for lack of proof . Witches, rye, mushrooms?
I assumed you knew the history, and that you'd ask if not, my mistake, there's probably quite a lot you don't know, just like me.

Dont insinuate that because i claim to know there is a God, that i am saying it as some kind of whim,
Never said you did!

or making up lies as to answer your CHEAP SHOT at suggesting i am an attention seeker.
Simply asked you a question!

"When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?"
To which you answered with:- "Not at all,"
WRONG!! Now you're actually making shit up.


I actually agree...i dont think you are rational enough to see the obvious flaw in your logic...
And I see that you are not rational enough to understand what logic is.


Comprende?
Comprendre?

You statements in response to mine were waffle ---- borderline burnt toast at best.
You speak to yourself in your mirror. It is very possible indeed, that you are quite insane, as evidenced by your hearing of voices, that are not mine.

WHAT?

[SpheresOfBalance]

WHAT?

You blind as well, or still hearing voices?

[Godfree]

Man cannot know the truth of this question ,,???? , lets be clear what the question is ,

But I do agree with one thing you said, that being, that there are multitudes of possibilities as to the truth of a possible creator.

Godfree: I don't recall saying such a thing so just to clarify ,

there are as many versions of what god is

This,
Sanity ,
the universe exists ,
Probability ,
there is more of the same for infinity ,

You can waffle on about as many remote possibilities as you like ,
The waffle is contained in your understanding of my meaning.

my focus is on the most probable ,
According to your limited knowledge, which doesn't necessarily say much of anything.

not the least probable most insane unlikely non scientific nonsense that is religion ,
no , the most probable ,,!!!
Does science know it all? Are humans finished exploring? If you answer no, then there you go!

[/quote]

Firstly while you may not see a difference between what you said vrs what I said , there is one ,
"as to the truth of a creator"
you will not find me using creator and truth together , there is nothing true about a creator ,
there are many versions of what god is , none of them are true .

The most probable ,,,so lets have yours try getting real for a minute here ,
probability
1,,,We evolved in an infinite universe , in my opinion ,99% chance of being correct
2,,,We evolved in a finite universe , .999... chance of being real ,
3,,,god , .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance
I think I have as usual made myself very clear here ,
so please show me the same from you ,
whats your most probable , and the % of probability you would give it ,,???

[Godfree]

"When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?"
To which you answered with:- "Not at all,"
WRONG!! Now you're actually making shit up.


I actually agree...i dont think you are rational enough to see the obvious flaw in your logic...
And I see that you are not rational enough to understand what logic is.


Comprende?
Comprendre?

You statements in response to mine were waffle ---- borderline burnt toast at best.
You speak to yourself in your mirror. It is very possible indeed, that you are quite insane, as evidenced by your hearing of voices, that are not mine.
[/quote][/quote]
WHAT?[/quote]

Logic Spheres ,?? ,,what is logic ,,give me both barrels mate , don't hold back ,
you appear to be speaking with authority as to how rational or logical Atto is ,
and while your at it please tell me how rational or logical the idea of a god is ,,???

[attofishpi]

Godfree your powers of perception are pathetic. Spheres is speaking like a baby thats lost its dummy...PLEASE get back on topic and stop wasting my time with childish antics.
So are you stating below that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

We are talking about man's comprehension of reality in relation to 'God' so we really should be speaking from a perspective of a 'finite' universe.

The reason i state that is because resources available to man ARE finite. The entropy of our 'system' over time will continue to increase.

Agreed?

Not at all , our "system" isn't increasing now ,
and it will not increase in the future ,
it is already as big as it can get ,
Because some men can't comprehend infinity , they are trapped in finite thinking ,
but you do not speak for me , it is not your job to tell me what I can and can't do ,
it is your job to tell me what YOU can or can't do ,
you can't do infinity , I believe you ,
it does require a solid grasp of logic ,
I was emailed by Micheal Lewis a couple of days ago , invited me to join Linkedin ,
Micheal has a Physics degree and used maths to prove his claim that there was no big bang ,
and the universe is not expanding ,
I got there on logic alone ,
if you understand logic , you can see/imagine infinity ...

So are you stating that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

[Godfree]

Godfree your powers of perception are pathetic. Spheres is speaking like a baby thats lost its dummy...PLEASE get back on topic and stop wasting my time with childish antics.
So are you stating below that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

We are talking about man's comprehension of reality in relation to 'God' so we really should be speaking from a perspective of a 'finite' universe.

The reason i state that is because resources available to man ARE finite. The entropy of our 'system' over time will continue to increase.

Agreed?

Not at all , our "system" isn't increasing now ,
and it will not increase in the future ,
it is already as big as it can get ,
Because some men can't comprehend infinity , they are trapped in finite thinking ,
but you do not speak for me , it is not your job to tell me what I can and can't do ,
it is your job to tell me what YOU can or can't do ,
you can't do infinity , I believe you ,
it does require a solid grasp of logic ,
I was emailed by Micheal Lewis a couple of days ago , invited me to join Linkedin ,
Micheal has a Physics degree and used maths to prove his claim that there was no big bang ,
and the universe is not expanding ,
I got there on logic alone ,
if you understand logic , you can see/imagine infinity ...

So are you stating that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

state your resources , mans imagination is clearly infinite ,
there are no shortage of theories or opinions on any subject ,
if you need 100% proof certified and accepted as fact ,
then don't bother joining a philosophy forum on infinity ,
that would be like a christian , wanting to be real and stick to the truth ,
in order to prove infinity , one might have to go there , problem is it might take an infinite amount of time ,
to get back to us and reveal the truth about infinity ,
so I answered your question , answer mine please ,
what probability would you put on the following being real ,
1,,,an infinite universe in which we evolved ,
2,,,a finite universe in which we evolved ,
3,,,god did it ,

[attofishpi]

Not at all , our "system" isn't increasing now ,
and it will not increase in the future ,
it is already as big as it can get ,
Because some men can't comprehend infinity , they are trapped in finite thinking ,
but you do not speak for me , it is not your job to tell me what I can and can't do ,
it is your job to tell me what YOU can or can't do ,
you can't do infinity , I believe you ,
it does require a solid grasp of logic ,
I was emailed by Micheal Lewis a couple of days ago , invited me to join Linkedin ,
Micheal has a Physics degree and used maths to prove his claim that there was no big bang ,
and the universe is not expanding ,
I got there on logic alone ,
if you understand logic , you can see/imagine infinity ...

So are you stating that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

state your resources , mans imagination is clearly infinite ,
there are no shortage of theories or opinions on any subject ,
if you need 100% proof certified and accepted as fact ,
then don't bother joining a philosophy forum on infinity ,
that would be like a christian , wanting to be real and stick to the truth ,
in order to prove infinity , one might have to go there , problem is it might take an infinite amount of time ,
to get back to us and reveal the truth about infinity ,
so I answered your question , answer mine please ,
what probability would you put on the following being real ,
1,,,an infinite universe in which we evolved ,
2,,,a finite universe in which we evolved ,
3,,,god did it ,

...the question requires a binary answer..

YES or NO?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Man cannot know the truth of this question ,,???? , lets be clear what the question is ,

But I do agree with one thing you said, that being, that there are multitudes of possibilities as to the truth of a possible creator.

Godfree: I don't recall saying such a thing so just to clarify ,

there are as many versions of what god is

This,
Sanity ,
the universe exists ,
Probability ,
there is more of the same for infinity ,

You can waffle on about as many remote possibilities as you like ,
The waffle is contained in your understanding of my meaning.

my focus is on the most probable ,
According to your limited knowledge, which doesn't necessarily say much of anything.

not the least probable most insane unlikely non scientific nonsense that is religion ,
no , the most probable ,,!!!
Does science know it all? Are humans finished exploring? If you answer no, then there you go!

Firstly while you may not see a difference between what you said vrs what I said , there is one ,
"as to the truth of a creator"
you will not find me using creator and truth together , there is nothing true about a creator ,
You misunderstood, maybe I was not clear. We were BOTH speaking of THEIR perspective, not necessarily OURS. You said that: (paraphrased) THEIR truth, (do you not understand that they see it as truth?), included many different 'versions' of god. I agreed with you, that as to ANY truth of god, there are many ways in which one could see his existence/possibility. Then one should want to ask, "why are there so many ways?" What could many ways (versions/possibilities) say about religion, Judaeo-Christian or otherwise? At least that is the most apparent question it begs, to my way of thinking.
I believe that you have allowed my way of thinking, i.e., Agnosticism, to cloud your vision of what I said, such that you believed that I was necessarily siding with religion, I was not.

there are many versions of what god is , none of them are true .

The most probable ,,,so lets have yours try getting real for a minute here ,
probability
1,,,We evolved in an infinite universe , in my opinion ,99% chance of being correct
2,,,We evolved in a finite universe , .999... chance of being real ,
3,,,god , .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance
I think I have as usual made myself very clear here ,
Yes indeed, you have made your beliefs (opinions) quite clear, but I see no proof because you, nor anyone else, can provide any. This my friend, is a fact!

so please show me the same from you ,
whats your most probable , and the % of probability you would give it ,,???

Come on, you know as an Agnostic I can only say 50/50, intellectually speaking of course. Even Carl Sagan, a devout atheist, (and quite an intelligent cosmologist), to the very end, admitted that as to knowing (with proof), he could not. [/quote]

[SpheresOfBalance]

Godfree your powers of perception are pathetic. Spheres is speaking like a baby thats lost its dummy...PLEASE get back on topic and stop wasting my time with childish antics.
So are you stating below that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?

You're the one that brought up insanity, son, at least in our conversation. For fear?

[Godfree]

it is already as big as it can get ,
Because some men can't comprehend infinity , they are trapped in finite thinking ,
but you do not speak for me , it is not your job to tell me what I can and can't do ,
it is your job to tell me what YOU can or can't do ,
you can't do infinity , I believe you ,
it does require a solid grasp of logic ,
I was emailed by Micheal Lewis a couple of days ago , invited me to join Linkedin ,
Micheal has a Physics degree and used maths to prove his claim that there was no big bang ,
and the universe is not expanding ,
I got there on logic alone ,
if you understand logic , you can see/imagine infinity ...[/quote]

So are you stating that the resources available to man are infinte? A simple yes or no will suffice or am i to be thrown more waffle?[/quote]

state your resources , mans imagination is clearly infinite ,
there are no shortage of theories or opinions on any subject ,
if you need 100% proof certified and accepted as fact ,
then don't bother joining a philosophy forum on infinity ,
that would be like a christian , wanting to be real and stick to the truth ,
in order to prove infinity , one might have to go there , problem is it might take an infinite amount of time ,
to get back to us and reveal the truth about infinity ,
so I answered your question , answer mine please ,
what probability would you put on the following being real ,
1,,,an infinite universe in which we evolved ,
2,,,a finite universe in which we evolved ,
3,,,god did it ,[/quote]


Firstly I never made the statement that the resources available to man are infinite ,
you did ,,???
so aren't you having an argument with yourself ,???
your certainly not responding to my questions ,
No I don't think mans resources are infinite , thats a far to sweeping and general statement ,
if you want a yes or no ,
I suggest you construct a more intelligent question,.
now try responding to my request for you to put a number on your probability of models of reality ,
mine ,
An infinite universe in which we evolved ,,,99% chance of being real,
A finite universe in which we evolved .9% chance of being real ,
god did it , .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of being real ,
and yet it is the last one that most of this world believe to be the truth ,
that is pathetic ,,,
this world is full of children , little babies too frightened to grow up ,,,!!!