Principles or Policies -- Which should take priority?

[prof]

Principles suggest policies, and policies often have implicit principles in the background from which the policies were generated. I am aware of that.

For example, a Conservative would tell you that the main principle by which s/he lives is Stability = Keep things the way they are. In plain, basic terms this translates as "Don't rock the boat while I'm comfortable !"

In America, the conventional wisdom is that we are a democracy ...more than that:
"we are the "greatest democracy in the world "

Plutocracy and democracy don't mix. Plutocracy is the rule of the rich. It is political power controlled by the wealthy.

Millions of Americans have awakened to a sobering reality: they live in a plutocracy, where they are dispensable. The fate and character of our country are up for grabs. I am biased: democracy only works when we claim it as our own. Get out there and get active !

My main point in this thread is this: We ought to screen - and filter out - each politician running for election, or re-election, to learn what their values are: what are the principles they live by? Do they really care about people ...even common people? Do they care beyond some narrow interest (such as for their own family, kin, tribe)? Are their concerns inclusive, perhaps including the entire nation - and the suffering of the poor? Do they put (ethical) principle above policy? Are they even acquainted with the meaning of Ethics? (as understood and interpreted by Prof at the Ethical Theory site at this Forum.) Are you?

Get politically active

Subscribe to Philosophy Now, yes. But also read the classic by Anatol Rapoport, OPERATIONAL PHILOSOPHY.
http://www.amazon.com/Operational-Philo ... l+rapoport Ask your university library to order it. In it he discusses hidden loci or power. We need to be aware of these facts.

He - a founder of General Systems Theory, and a world-class expert in Game-Theory applied to Ethics - also wrote the book, The Origins of Violence: Approaches to the Study of Conflict.
A Professor Emeritus, at The University of Michigan, he just passed away at age 96. He had profound insight and yet was very clear on his ethics, as well as being able to write with keen clarity.

Also subscribe to Jim Hightower - THE LOWDOWN. He is a former public official in Texas, and he has a site on the web - well-worth keeping up with. And fun to read !!

Listen to 'Take Action News' and to the Amy Goodman report. Read up on Democracy in America. See the relevant web pages which your search tools can find for you.

Have you seen the video yet: The Ninety-nine Percent Movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ANK4XE_BR8

In my view the main priority in the USA now, when it comes to policy, is jobs. Yet Congress is talking about everything else but actually creating and funding jobs. And though some may talk "jobs" they don't do much about creating them. Are they doing what they were sent there to do? If not, why do we elect them? Do they have clear moral principles - a few of which are listed at the end of Katz - ASPECTS OF ETHICS: Views through a new lens. Google it; or use this link: http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/As ... ics%20.pdf

. Happy reading !

Comments?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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We are sooooooo fucked.





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[Tesla]

My main point in this thread is this: We ought to screen - and filter out - each politician running for election, or re-election, to learn what their values are: what are the principles they live by? Do they really care about people ...even common people? Do they care beyond some narrow interest (such as for their own family, kin, tribe)? Are their concerns inclusive, perhaps including the entire nation - and the suffering of the poor? Do they put (ethical) principle above policy? Are they even acquainted with the meaning of Ethics? (as understood and interpreted by Prof at the Ethical Theory site at this Forum.) Are you?

Get politically active

Comments?

II agree with bill actually. But I'm still trying. I've written several letters, discussed policy with state and federal representatives and at least one policy writer. Basically the idea is: if the money is not there. Right or wrong, you stick to the money. That keeps the government moving. Now to be a politician in a first past the post voting system gives you two choices: Democrat or Republican. If we are going to improve American politics and actually have a choice, or even a voice, we have to take back the voting power. To do that is to choose a different voting system. Where you choose which candidate you want to win, and then choose two more candidates you want to win, if for some reason the guy you want is dropped for lack of support.

Keep in mind though, if we successfully implement this system, the special interest money funding the democrats and republicans will do everything they can to make sure one of the two parties is the winner, be it buying media slots, and out-buying the lesser funded candidates--even if the lesser funded is the right guy for the job.

This would help in presidential candidates, but once in office even if the right guy is there, you have a two party congress. That congress obeys special interest.


imagine you're president, you worked all your life to get to that place, and then a man walks in with a bill for you to sign that you 'know' is going to hurt a lot of people, and even be destructive to the planet. The man who hands it to you say’s: sign this. It is not a question. The option is lose 30% of the U.S. economy, or sign a piece of paper that aids special interest to the detriment of the planet and some people. You know if you lose 30% of the economy you are done as president, possibly assassinated or impeached. You sign it, and what? A few people get birth defects, some water gets muddied air is a little harder to breathe...but you still are president. It’s a moral decision. 99.999999999% of people in those shoes are going to sign the bill.

The screening is a good idea, but many people already believe that screening is already accomplished when politician’s records are examined. The real question that needs to be asked is "who is making decisions?" politicians for the most part hire people with degrees to do the real work: analyst and the like. The politician is the public eye man, the actor, good at memorizing well written speeches and likeable to the public he represents. The real work is done behind the scenes, and although the politicians sometimes do write their own policy ideas and try to force them through, they rarely bear fruit until after much editing and revision by the hired well educated people who work under the politician in committees.

The work of today's politicians is mainly damage control. They know revolution is coming, and a potentially violent one. The nation is soaked in gasoline, and the wrong match is going to fire it up. That’s why the pressure for gun controls. They are preparing for the worst but they promote the idea as if it is going to save lives from terrorists, when the government laws are the terrorism: destroying families with bad policy.

So what do I believe takes priority? Principle or policy? Neither. Both have equal relevance. But neither have very good definitions. Let’s first do some defining as a nation, a whole voice, not the few, and then with that knowledge let's write good policy.

[The Voice of Time]

I thought there already were plenty of sites detailing the candidates opinions in your country ^^ you only have to use them.

[Tesla]

In my view the main priority in the USA now, when it comes to policy, is jobs. Yet Congress is talking about everything else but actually creating and funding jobs. And though some may talk "jobs" they don't do much about creating them. Are they doing what they were sent there to do? If not, why do we elect them? Do they have clear moral principles - a few of which are listed at the end of Katz - ASPECTS OF ETHICS: Views through a new lens. Google it. Happy reading !

Comments?

Prof, if the main priority is 'jobs', what do we do about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWPR7NZnFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ktYbVwr90

Now, given these issues. how many years from now will jobs will be the lesser of the issues discussed? what good is philosophy, when 'the most important thing' becomes self-preservation? Are we all mere men of words? what actions will we take despite our desire for morality? Perhaps that is a good philosophical topic.

[Hjarloprillar]

Subscribe to Philosophy Now, yes. But also read the classic by Anatol Rapoport, OPERATIONAL PHILOSOPHY.
http://www.amazon.com/Operational-Philo ... l+rapoport Ask your university library to order it. In it he discusses hidden loci or power. We need to be aware of these facts.

He - a founder of General Systems Theory, and a world-class expert in Game-Theory applied to Ethics - also wrote the book, The Origins of Violence: Approaches to the Study of Conflict.
A Professor Emeritus, at The University of Michigan, he just passed away at age 96. He had profound insight and yet was very clear on his ethics, as well as being able to write with keen clarity.

Obviously i have spent too long in a cave. berift of hope.

Then again.. such a period means my general systems and geopolitics is not poluted.
Prof.. you enew my hope when all hope was .. well. doubtfull.

As a stochastic mil analyst. Historian and fool for hire.

use me.

[Arising_uk]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[prof]

Arising is asking: Who will watch the watchdogs? Who will regulate those appointed to be regulators?

Who keeps an eye on Congress (and parliaments)? Why the people will have to ...you and I. Stay informed. Get active in politics.
Join your ward committee if feasible, and then work your way up from there. In this manner you may be able to change your party in the direction of integrity and living by moral principle. This assumes that you have a strong enough character that you cannot 'be bought.' You will resist bribery and other forms of corruption. You will work hard on campaign reform. Maine has it. Get your state to adopt it also. Let's get the money out of politics

How? By having the government pay for election and campaign expenses, and have limits on candidate's spending to campaign.

[Tesla]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness are not enforced. not when laws can be written to fine you for having your car running in your own driveway. The watchdog is the rights. and we need a police to enforce those rights. the courts cost too much, and only the very well off can afford to attempt to take a case to the supreme court, and it will potentially be years before it is heard, if it is heard at all.

that's my suggestion. maybe it will work? maybe?

Prof: Voting laws. in my state voting is so confusing it is almost easy to check the wrong checks, and even waste half of your voting power. as far as local elections, get ready to spend a lot of time researching, they change the rules often. I have no idea how to address it, the powers that be do not want it addressed.

[Hjarloprillar]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness are not enforced. not when laws can be written to fine you for having your car running in your own driveway. The watchdog is the rights. and we need a police to enforce those rights. the courts cost too much, and only the very well off can afford to attempt to take a case to the supreme court, and it will potentially be years before it is heard, if it is heard at all.

that's my suggestion. maybe it will work? maybe?

Prof: Voting laws. in my state voting is so confusing it is almost easy to check the wrong checks, and even waste half of your voting power. as far as local elections, get ready to spend a lot of time researching, they change the rules often. I have no idea how to address it, the powers that be do not want it addressed.

I expressed my inalienable rights to freedom
I have never voted and never paid a cent for not doing so.. Even after a multitude of warnings and threats.
I have no desire to support one head of the hydra over another. When both want to eat me.
Simply reply to the sender. "Go to hell, instrument of Satan".. works every time.
People say. this and that.
I am responsible for my species on this backwater jerk of a planet.
Yes love humanity.. but it is so stupid i used to cry.. now i dont.

Look at the watchdogs.. Its . 'get on the ground now' repeated over and over. Even hostages and civies are thrown to concrete in frenzy of STUPID.
Why not make robots to do it.. They might be smarter at job.

carpe cerevisi

world pop clock as of 30 seconds past
7,108,549,420


talk talk talk. we can do this we can do that. crap


7,108,550,014

[Tesla]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness are not enforced. not when laws can be written to fine you for having your car running in your own driveway. The watchdog is the rights. and we need a police to enforce those rights. the courts cost too much, and only the very well off can afford to attempt to take a case to the supreme court, and it will potentially be years before it is heard, if it is heard at all.

that's my suggestion. maybe it will work? maybe?

Prof: Voting laws. in my state voting is so confusing it is almost easy to check the wrong checks, and even waste half of your voting power. as far as local elections, get ready to spend a lot of time researching, they change the rules often. I have no idea how to address it, the powers that be do not want it addressed.

I expressed my inalienable rights to freedom
I have never voted and never paid a cent for not doing so.. Even after a multitude of warnings and threats.
I have no desire to support one head of the hydra over another. When both want to eat me.
Simply reply to the sender. "Go to hell, instrument of Satan".. works every time.
People say. this and that.
I am responsible for my species on this backwater jerk of a planet.
Yes love humanity.. but it is so stupid i used to cry.. now i dont.

Look at the watchdogs.. Its . 'get on the ground now' repeated over and over. Even hostages and civies are thrown to concrete in frenzy of STUPID.
Why not make robots to do it.. They might be smarter at job.

carpe cerevisi

world pop clock as of 30 seconds past
7,108,549,420


talk talk talk. we can do this we can do that. crap


7,108,550,014

good point. If the wealth is spread, the population booms...people live longer. The population booms... we need a world discussion about what were facing. but how, when the media and the politicians are ignoring it? how can we help get the word out that we are headed for disaster, and begin looking for more than just a few contraceptives to fix it?

[Hjarloprillar]

Its quite horrifying.. If i was not aspergers..

On a train going 90 miles an hour. And on far horizon a bridge is out.
no way off.
No movie Hollywood has dreamed of will equal the horror that will come.
Horror to us.. nothing to reality but a drop in numbers.

This process has been repeated in many species in the past. overpopulation.
But we have reason.
We 'could'. Support 20 billion. 30 50.. but that takes money.
Not profitable.

Prill

[Tesla]

Its quite horrifying.. If i was not aspergers..

On a train going 90 miles an hour. And on far horizon a bridge is out.
no way off.
No movie Hollywood has dreamed of will equal the horror that will come.
Horror to us.. nothing to reality but a drop in numbers.

This process has been repeated in many species in the past. overpopulation.
But we have reason.
We 'could'. Support 20 billion. 30 50.. but that takes money.
Not profitable.

Prill

your not entirely correct. the planet will not sustain 30 or 50. at best it can stand 9 billion. the ship runs out of supplies before it reaches shore at anything more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWPR7NZnFY

[Hjarloprillar]

Its quite horrifying.. If i was not aspergers..

On a train going 90 miles an hour. And on far horizon a bridge is out.
no way off.
No movie Hollywood has dreamed of will equal the horror that will come.
Horror to us.. nothing to reality but a drop in numbers.

This process has been repeated in many species in the past. overpopulation.
But we have reason.
We 'could'. Support 20 billion. 30 50.. but that takes money.
Not profitable.

Prill

your not entirely correct. the planet will not sustain 30 or 50. at best it can stand 9 billion. the ship runs out of supplies before it reaches shore at anything more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWPR7NZnFY

Im talking world cities and far more.. We could do it, we'd have to start NOW... but you are right. At 9 to 10 it goes tits up.
This is why i say apollo to the moon.. was our greatest moment.. WE did it.
In a tin can. why i cried was that apollo was the last /best thing WE ever did.. In fact the only thing WE ever did.

Our epitaph . "We went to moon.. otherwise we wasted every opportunity reason allowed".

[Tesla]

Im talking world cities and far more.. We could do it, we'd have to start NOW... but you are right. At 9 to 10 it goes tits up.

So that is an issue with sharing wealth. When the wealth is prosperous, the wealthy multiply.