Hi. Wow...

[Arising_uk]

The real question is why not change now? Answer: Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure, tooling for new technologies leave business's in the red for years. That's how the standard and shell moguls shut down ford's ethanol back in the day. Damn those fucks. ...

That and that the customer doesn't want to pay.

So they just become??

Become what?

Coal is the dirtiest fuel of them all, talk about air pollution, carbon footprint, and thus global warming, wow! Sure there's talk of clean coal, but where is it?

Not "thus" global warming as it looks like its going to get hotter regardless.

The clean coal is in the expensive scrubbers that the customer doesn't want to pay for.

Talk about ethics: the ones that cause the problem, are the ones that are saved??

When I said "wealthy" I meant you and no-where did I say anyone is going to be saved.

You forgot one, politics must be dropped as well, and as I've said in the past, governments should be ran by scholars (science) as they are the only ones equipped to actually know how to steer the ship of progress, or rather they're the only ones that could possibly do so with any degree of real success, in terms of global equilibrium.

Nope, as we have to live in the real world and that'll involve compromise and co-operation which means politics. Science is rife with its own internal politics and scientists are far from understanding how to do this.

[Arising_uk]

I think she's referring to not spending money that's required in making the dirty, clean, so as to maximize profits, if not, it is a problem.

That and that the customer doesn't want to pay.

So you're saying, "what the hell, we didn't start the fire that's raging out of control, so why not throw accelerant on it?"

Nope, I'm saying its going to get hotter anyway, what solutions do you offer for this?

So what, the flat white, the most reflective pigment of them all, is responsible for the majority of reflecting the suns rays back out into space, while water/land absorbs the energy, not to mention that ice/snow is cold.

The pollution we produce is actually keeping the temperature down, if we remove them it'd be even hotter. What do you suggest?

Apathy? If a kids on heroin, do you say "so what he'll do it again anyway?"

This is not a suggestion, I asked for your suggestion.

So you either don't have any progeny, or don't care about them, and theirs? Nice!!!

I have kids and as I've told them they'll be dead before they are drowned, a question they asked me as this is the message they got from the environmentalists. What I care about is what actual solutions the Cassandras offer rather than this continual 'woe is us!'.

[Arising_uk]

...

and what changes can we expect to eventuate by doing this?

No idea other than a list of conflicts that could end and a more realistic appreciation of science and scientists.

I'd could also drive a need for change as not having the crutch of a 'God' and an 'afterlife' many might decide things should change in the here and now rather than after.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The real question is why not change now? Answer: Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure, tooling for new technologies leave business's in the red for years. That's how the standard and shell moguls shut down ford's ethanol back in the day. Damn those fucks. ...

That and that the customer doesn't want to pay.
No, they lowered there profit margin because their tooling was in place, and business was thriving, so that he couldn't compete as he was just then tooling. It would seem the shoe's on the wrong foot.

So they just become??

Become what?
You're the that said it, how should I necessarily know what you meant.

Coal is the dirtiest fuel of them all, talk about air pollution, carbon footprint, and thus global warming, wow! Sure there's talk of clean coal, but where is it?

Not "thus" global warming as it looks like its going to get hotter regardless.
Again, your apathy fuels the fire.


The clean coal is in the expensive scrubbers that the customer doesn't want to pay for.
Whose responsibility? Who's got the money? I think you are again placing the shoe on the wrong foot.

Talk about ethics: the ones that cause the problem, are the ones that are saved??

When I said "wealthy" I meant you and no-where did I say anyone is going to be saved.
I'd like to hear your definition. So as to speak, but I seriously doubt you have a crystal ball.

You forgot one, politics must be dropped as well, and as I've said in the past, governments should be ran by scholars (science) as they are the only ones equipped to actually know how to steer the ship of progress, or rather they're the only ones that could possibly do so with any degree of real success, in terms of global equilibrium.

Nope, as we have to live in the real world and that'll involve compromise and co-operation which means politics. Science is rife with its own internal politics and scientists are far from understanding how to do this.
Obviously, I meant as it currently is, my way of indicating the need for a radical mastectomy.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I think she's referring to not spending money that's required in making the dirty, clean, so as to maximize profits, if not, it is a problem.

That and that the customer doesn't want to pay.
You're going to have to seriously consider marking those shoes, one with an L and the other with an R.

So you're saying, "what the hell, we didn't start the fire that's raging out of control, so why not throw accelerant on it?"

Nope, I'm saying its going to get hotter anyway, what solutions do you offer for this?
So since you obviously have no solution, you throw accelerant on the fire!

So what, the flat white, the most reflective pigment of them all, is responsible for the majority of reflecting the suns rays back out into space, while water/land absorbs the energy, not to mention that ice/snow is cold.

The pollution we produce is actually keeping the temperature down, if we remove them it'd be even hotter. What do you suggest?
No, you have it reversed. Pollution is trapping the heat, so as for it not, to escape it's confines.

Apathy? If a kids on heroin, do you say "so what he'll do it again anyway?"

This is not a suggestion, I asked for your suggestion.
Who do you think you're talking to? You said "Anyway," this is what I addressed, understand?

So you either don't have any progeny, or don't care about them, and theirs? Nice!!!

I have kids and as I've told them they'll be dead before they are drowned, a question they asked me as this is the message they got from the environmentalists. What I care about is what actual solutions the Cassandras offer rather than this continual 'woe is us!'.
You see Cassandras due to your apathetic lethargy. I for one have plenty of solutions, it's just, people are too selfish to even consider. They, like you, want to know what others can do for them, instead of getting off their rears, and confronting the issues, which, surprise, leads to solution.

[The Voice of Time]

I think he's referring to milking the current energy infrastructure versus the cost of tooling for a new technology.

I still can't see how that constitutes a cost for society. Surely it'll take some time to switch, but the switching itself can be very smooth, we don't actually strictly speaking loose anything.

No, that's what has created these things in the past in a world initially divided, we are now talking of a time where the fact that we are all one is seen through the eyes of our shared problems. I'm sorry to tell you this but the days of only concerning oneself with a decent enjoyable life are over, that is if you really want to live at all. We've reached the final crescendo, the final curtain call. It's not all fun and games anymore.]

I don't get it, how can you preach science when you come with such meaningless sentences as the last ones there? That's got nothing to do with reality, it's the view of somebody stuck in depressed thought.

[bobevenson]

Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure...

Is this some kind of economics joke???

[The Voice of Time]

Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure...

Is this some kind of economics joke???

Gotta agree with bob. Many people in the world owe the quality of their lives to the oil infrastructure, and I'd be very surprised if there were any significant amount of people who suffered directly from it, and if anybody at all suffers from it then one should target the reasons for that and not a general concept.

But economically speaking there are truths to this as well if you think money instead of oil, because the Norwegian government had to go not too long ago and criticize oil companies offshore of Norway for not taking enough oil, that is, companies were after quick big bucks and therefore they would rather jump to a new big oil field than finish off fields they weren't done with but where the larger amount of oil was already exploited.

[reasonvemotion]

Human nature. If someone wants something, desperately, many who sense this, use this for their own advantage.

As oil reserves diminish and prices sky rocket, the countries reliant upon others for their supply will be made to comprise "something" that will not be to their advantage.

In other words it will become "ugly". (more than it is already)

[SpheresOfBalance]

I think he's referring to milking the current energy infrastructure versus the cost of tooling for a new technology.

I still can't see how that constitutes a cost for society. Surely it'll take some time to switch, but the switching itself can be very smooth, we don't actually strictly speaking loose anything.
Do you know the story of Henry Fords ethanol? Standard Oil and Shells moguls saw that he was going to compete with their product, OIL, and so they conspired to put their competition aside so as to take out this new comer. I guess they saw that ethanol was renewable thus ultimately unbeatable. So they dropped their prices so Henry couldn't compete because he was in the beginning phase's of tooling and thus required the previous pricing. Well they succeeded to put him out of business, I wish someone had taken them both out, and I don't mean to dinner, as specifically, Rockefeller, (Standard Oil), had already Massacred innocent women and children, if only I had a time machine I'd fix our problem. The point being that this "we" you speak of is just you and that mouse in your pocket, as we're talking of the rich, the ones that actually control things, and they only understand their bottom line, money..

No, that's what has created these things in the past in a world initially divided, we are now talking of a time where the fact that we are all one is seen through the eyes of our shared problems. I'm sorry to tell you this but the days of only concerning oneself with a decent enjoyable life are over, that is if you really want to live at all. We've reached the final crescendo, the final curtain call. It's not all fun and games anymore.]

I don't get it, how can you preach science when you come with such meaningless sentences as the last ones there? That's got nothing to do with reality, it's the view of somebody stuck in depressed thought.
Not at all, you're just unaware of the facts that lend to my words, It's not that they're hollow, you're just ignorant of their substance, and I don't feel like writing a book, on the fly, here at PNF. Like I said before, I can't type for shit, for various reasons.

Why are we so quick to condescendingly label people, because we simply don't understand them?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure...

Is this some kind of economics joke???

Yes, but you missed the punch line.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Greedy capitalists that want to squeeze every last drop out of their oil infrastructure...

Is this some kind of economics joke???

Gotta agree with bob. Many people in the world owe the quality of their lives to the oil infrastructure, and I'd be very surprised if there were any significant amount of people who suffered directly from it, and if anybody at all suffers from it then one should target the reasons for that and not a general concept.
Quality of their lives... That's a joke! It's this, "anything for a buck," mentality that shall be mankind's ruin.


But economically speaking there are truths to this as well if you think money instead of oil, because the Norwegian government had to go not too long ago and criticize oil companies offshore of Norway for not taking enough oil, that is, companies were after quick big bucks and therefore they would rather jump to a new big oil field than finish off fields they weren't done with but where the larger amount of oil was already exploited.

Money is not the bottom line, in actuality, truth is! And it shall knock one dead, in an instant, while they're assessing the worth of their glittering prize.

[The Voice of Time]

Do you know the story of Henry Fords ethanol? Standard Oil and Shells moguls saw that he was going to compete with their product, OIL, and so they conspired to put their competition aside so as to take out this new comer. I guess they saw that ethanol was renewable thus ultimately unbeatable. So they dropped their prices so Henry couldn't compete because he was in the beginning phase's of tooling and thus required the previous pricing. Well they succeeded to put him out of business, I wish someone had taken them both out, and I don't mean to dinner, as specifically, Rockefeller, (Standard Oil), had already Massacred innocent women and children, if only I had a time machine I'd fix our problem. The point being that this "we" you speak of is just you and that mouse in your pocket, as we're talking of the rich, the ones that actually control things, and they only understand their bottom line, money..

You should have separated the text so that you didn't give this answer to a statement I made elsewhere, at first I didn't understand why you wrote that. But now that you're at it, ethanol is highly ineffective energy production when all matters are taken into account, it's a blessing it was never taken large-scale, it would've ruined the crops of the world and spread poverty (or at least hindered development) through scarcity of fuel and scarcity of places to grow quality food (and scarce access to food due to increased costs).

Not at all, you're just unaware of the facts that lend to my words, It's not that they're hollow, you're just ignorant of their substance, and I don't feel like writing a book, on the fly, here at PNF. Like I said before, I can't type for shit, for various reasons.

You're not very helpful.

Why are we so quick to condescendingly label people, because we simply don't understand them?

Dunno. If you are referring to me: I usually don't label people unless they are metaphorically screaming for being labelled by quite clear ways of being, like a guy who says "I am God". Instead, I usually tell them what they've done, and if they think I'm labelling them, it's usually their own thoughts, and not mine.

[The Voice of Time]

Quality of their lives... That's a joke! It's this, "anything for a buck," mentality that shall be mankind's ruin.

The products of oil you find anywhere in the world. The food you eat has been transported by oil in very efficient ways allowing for you to get enough food, when you want it and where you want it. Oil exporting countries have granted other countries a highly valuable resource and in exchange those other countries have helped lift the exporting country out of poverty and into wealth, granting them access to health care, advanced learning, technology, various items they didn't have access to before and items of higher quality than before, not to mention they've imported industry because entrepreneurs have found new markets to deliver their products to. Bad solutions by a few greedy bastards isn't worthwhile the argument it tries to present, you can't generalize a massacre done a hundred years ago by some bastards that all or even most oil producers or refiners are like that or that it is even a trait that belongs to them.

Money is not the bottom line, in actuality, truth is! And it shall knock one dead, in an instant, while they're assessing the worth of their glittering prize.

I don't understand these sentences. What are you trying to say? Are you on drugs or something? Because you are preaching like a priest on ecstasy. What truth do you mean? Does your truth constitute facts nested in arguments or are you talking truth like a religious or ideological truth?

[Arising_uk]

No, they lowered there profit margin because their tooling was in place, and business was thriving, so that he couldn't compete as he was just then tooling. It would seem the shoe's on the wrong foot.

Sorry, I was talking about why they won't change now and I agree that the oil producers will not invest in new technologies util its cost-effective, i.e. they can make a profit as currently the customer won't pay for it. With respect to ethanol, this one of those bio-fuels? If so the problem with this is that then land for food becomes land for cars.

Again, your apathy fuels the fire.

Thats the second time you've accused me of this, so tell me what exactly you are doing to alleviate this situation?

Whose responsibility? Who's got the money? I think you are again placing the shoe on the wrong foot.

Over here it used to be a nationalized industry so I used to be able to say us and our govt. Now they are all owned by shareholders ago so I guess the usual suspects own them, banks, pensions funds, savers, etc. If the customers got together and convinced the energy companies that they'd pay a higher price for clean coal then I guess the companies would do it. The reality is that you can't get the customers to do this.

I'd like to hear your definition. So as to speak, but I seriously doubt you have a crystal ball.

Westerners, especially Americans, who pay fuck all for their energy usage as a percentage of earnings and consume most of the world fossils fuels, i.e. the energy wealthy. Although it looks like China is going to be doing most of the consuming from now on.

Obviously, I meant as it currently is, my way of indicating the need for a radical mastectomy.

And how do you think thats going to happen?