Free will and hunger

For all things philosophical.

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Do we have free will?

Yes
6
35%
No
11
65%
 
Total votes: 17

rantal
Posts: 316
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Location: Third stone from the sun

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by rantal »

Mark Question wrote:
rantal wrote:This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and 'reason' Imagine a person fasting and in hunger, their hunger gives them

a reason to eat but does not cause them to eat

their wish to fast

gives them reason to refrain from eating but does not cause them so to do

Neither of these reasons is sufficient to cause the person to act without the person choosing to act upon that reason

all the best, rantal
confusion between physical and rational (be)cause?

is persons wish free of physical and rational causes? why the person choose to act upon that reason?
Sorry, your post is a little non-cogent, please rephrase

all the best, rantal
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

duszek wrote:Mark.

An idealistic consideration does not tell anyone anything.
An idealistic consideration is generated in a free agent´s mind.
A free agent is the author of it. It is his.

Of course, some people do not bother to generate their own considerations. They adopt other people´s considerations. But they do not have to. They can generate their own ones if they want to.
your own idealistic considerations does not tell you anything?
is there always some reasons, (be)causes, why agents want to generate their own considerations? what makes author free from (be)causes, reasons?
are we free to want torture, rape and kill our family and friends?
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

rantal wrote:
Mark Question wrote:
rantal wrote:This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and 'reason' Imagine a person fasting and in hunger, their hunger gives them

a reason to eat but does not cause them to eat

their wish to fast

gives them reason to refrain from eating but does not cause them so to do

Neither of these reasons is sufficient to cause the person to act without the person choosing to act upon that reason

all the best, rantal
confusion between physical and rational (be)cause?

is persons wish free of physical and rational causes? why the person choose to act upon that reason?
Sorry, your post is a little non-cogent, please rephrase

all the best, rantal
This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and (rational) cause/(be)cause/'reason'?
This discussion is really a confusion between rational words?
This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and 'reason', to do something without brains cause or mental reason, freely?
what is free reasoning? without remembered experiences from/in, life/world? free acting without any reason?

are we talking about autonomous agents, like robots, not free from world they are part of? and are we talking about fatalism?
rantal
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:35 pm
Location: Third stone from the sun

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by rantal »

Mark Question wrote:
confusion between physical and rational (be)cause?

is persons wish free of physical and rational causes? why the person choose to act upon that reason?[/quote]

Sorry, your post is a little non-cogent, please rephrase

all the best, rantal
[/quote]
This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and (rational) cause/(be)cause/'reason'?
This discussion is really a confusion between rational words?
This discussion is really a confusion between 'cause' and 'reason', to do something without brains cause or mental reason, freely?
what is free reasoning? without remembered experiences from/in, life/world? free acting without any reason?

are we talking about autonomous agents, like robots, not free from world they are part of? and are we talking about fatalism?[/quote]

Are you using translation software to write this? It still appears confused and not in normal English

all the best, rantal
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SpheresOfBalance
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Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Mark Question wrote:
duszek wrote:Mark.

An idealistic consideration does not tell anyone anything.
An idealistic consideration is generated in a free agent´s mind.
A free agent is the author of it. It is his.

Of course, some people do not bother to generate their own considerations. They adopt other people´s considerations. But they do not have to. They can generate their own ones if they want to.
your own idealistic considerations does not tell you anything?
Of course it does, based upon your knowledge.

is there always some reasons, (be)causes, why agents want to generate their own considerations?
Sure there are, that are determined by ones knowledge.

what makes author free from (be)causes, reasons?
(Be)causes and reasons are the will of the person, freedom is contained in a particular ones choosing, their knowledge.

are we free to want torture, rape and kill our family and friends?
Of course we are, but I for one am free to will it, not; in keeping with my particular knowledge, but the freedom is contained in the choosing.
It seems that you are trying to see freedom beyond human capabilities, but just because you can conceive of the possibility of it, does not necessarily indicate that in fact it can exist. The freedom of the human will, rests firmly, in what it is, in being human. To consider anything else, may be on the horizon, but it's foolish to compare it to now, as if a possibility, can have any necessary bearing.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by chaz wyman »

MisterMaggot wrote:How can we have free will and experience hunger?

All living things are coerced into doing things by hunger, hunger is painful and cannot be ignored. Even the most intelligent human will, when hungry, think only of acquiring food. Our actions are governed by hunger, thirst, tiredness, the need for sex etc. These are fundamental 'needs', such as those in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. All of these needs cause discomfort when not addressed. How can anyone experience these needs and still maintain that we have free will?

Humans are capable of resisting these needs, such as resisting hunger when dieting. However this resistance is caused by a greater need, perhaps the need to be accepted or find a mate.

I conclude that all human actions are caused by human needs. Therefore we have no free will, we are simply machines waiting for our need for 'x' to reach a certain level at which point we must address it.

What are your thoughts on this theory?
Hunger for food is one obvious type of compulsion. The human body (and in that I include what is called the 'mind'), is comprised of a complex interaction of a range of other internal necessities.

Consciousness is the acknowledgement and recognition of those compulsions.

When we 'make a choice' it is the culmination and acceptance of a particular course of action that matches the complex but necessary act of will.

It is not free in the biblical sense. But what we term free will is simply nothing more than the expression of inner necessity determined wholly by antecedent condition which exist within the brain.

Thus the survey at the top of the post cannot be answered, as it is more to do with what is meant by 'free' in the context of the will.

To assert that we act out of our will freely, can only mean free of external compulsion. As Einstein puts it:

In human freedom in the philosophical sense I am definitely a
disbeliever. Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in
accordance with inner necessity. Schopenhauer's saying, that "a man can do
as he will, but not will as he will," has been an inspiration to me since my
youth up, and a continual consolation and unfailing well-spring of patience
in the face of the hardships of life, my own and others'.


Choosing to watch Breaking Bad rather than Dexter on the TV tonight is as a result of a inner hunger that favours Breaking Bad. It is an act of will, which is free only if not prevented by another person. It is not free from ourselves as a causative agency. We cannot will to will Breaking Bad, we simply will it to be so. And that is deterministic.
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

rantal wrote: Neither of these reasons is sufficient to cause the person to act without the person choosing to act upon that reason
choosing is reasoning upon reasons? what is sufficient to cause the person to act?
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: is there always some reasons, (be)causes, why agents want to generate their own considerations?
Sure there are, that are determined by ones knowledge.

what makes author free from (be)causes, reasons?
(Be)causes and reasons are the will of the person, freedom is contained in a particular ones choosing, their knowledge.

It seems that you are trying to see freedom beyond human capabilities, but just because you can conceive of the possibility of it, does not necessarily indicate that in fact it can exist. The freedom of the human will, rests firmly, in what it is, in being human. To consider anything else, may be on the horizon, but it's foolish to compare it to now, as if a possibility, can have any necessary bearing.
what determines ones knowledge?
knowledge gives freedom over persons will((Be)causes and reasons)? freedom to choose?
what determines choosing?

are we all with scientists trying to see beyond good old knowledge, beyond free will, beyond bible and other stories, beyond earth, sun, atoms? making better possibility models, god knows not true models beyond human knowledge?
rantal
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:35 pm
Location: Third stone from the sun

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by rantal »

Mark Question wrote:
rantal wrote: Neither of these reasons is sufficient to cause the person to act without the person choosing to act upon that reason
choosing is reasoning upon reasons? what is sufficient to cause the person to act?

The reasons themselves are not sufficient to bring about action, until the person then makes a choice.

For instance, hunger gives me a reason to eat, my decision to fast gives me reason to abstain from eating but neither of these reasons are causes, neither determine my action.

Rather my action; eating or not eating, is determined by my choice between these two reasons

Hope that now makes it clear.

This I should add is the short, quick answer free will, made a simple as I can, there is a longer more complex version

all the best, rantal
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

chaz wyman wrote: Choosing to watch Breaking Bad rather than Dexter on the TV tonight is as a result of a inner hunger that favours Breaking Bad. It is an act of will, which is free only if not prevented by another person. It is not free from ourselves as a causative agency. We cannot will to will Breaking Bad, we simply will it to be so. And that is deterministic.
1. autonomous robots have free will also? why not we say we have own will? why we say we have free will or own free will? do we say we like to have whiskey with cold icecube or one cold icecube?

2. are we deterministic agents in a deterministic world? our fate is there somewhere even if we do not see our future, only expectations, predictions, forecasts?
Last edited by Mark Question on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Question
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:20 am

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by Mark Question »

rantal wrote:
The reasons themselves are not sufficient to bring about action, until the person then makes a choice.

For instance, hunger gives me a reason to eat, my decision to fast gives me reason to abstain from eating but neither of these reasons are causes, neither determine my action.

Rather my action; eating or not eating, is determined by my choice between these two reasons

Hope that now makes it clear.

This I should add is the short, quick answer free will, made a simple as I can, there is a longer more complex version

all the best, rantal
what determines your choice? what causes your choices?
rantal
Posts: 316
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Location: Third stone from the sun

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by rantal »

Nothing determines my choice, I make it freely

all the best, rantal
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by chaz wyman »

rantal wrote:Nothing determines my choice, I make it freely

all the best, rantal
You determine your choice, freedom has nothing to do with it.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by chaz wyman »

Mark Question wrote:
chaz wyman wrote: Choosing to watch Breaking Bad rather than Dexter on the TV tonight is as a result of a inner hunger that favours Breaking Bad. It is an act of will, which is free only if not prevented by another person. It is not free from ourselves as a causative agency. We cannot will to will Breaking Bad, we simply will it to be so. And that is deterministic.
1. autonomous robots have free will also? why not we say we have own will? why we say we have free will or own free will? do we say we like to have whiskey with cold icecube or one cold icecube?

2. are we deterministic agents in a deterministic world? our fate is there somewhere even if we do not see our future, only expectations, predictions, forecasts?
Determinism does not imply fatalism, nor does it imply that the future is know or can be know with certainty.
It just says that actions are the result of antecedent conditions. That is true for robots as well as humans.
Humans have the ability to act, and to make account of it, robots do not. Humans talk about their choices knowingly, robots do not.
rantal
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:35 pm
Location: Third stone from the sun

Re: Free will and hunger

Post by rantal »

chaz wyman wrote:
rantal wrote:Nothing determines my choice, I make it freely

all the best, rantal
You determine your choice, freedom has nothing to do with it.

That really amounts to the same thing, if I determine my choice, I do so freely

all the best, rantal
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