God + Allah = ?

[thedoc]

I had a look at connie talbot. I don't think it is wise or fair to introduce someone so young to so much fame; there are so many horror stories; Lena Zavaroni, Brittany Spears, Michael Jackson.
I can gear she has a good voice but just don't find her appealing to listen to.

I agree that it is not good to 'push' a young child into any kind of preformance, but I do not know these children or their parents, so I can only hope for the best. When I was growing up I was discouraged from pursuing any interest that my father did not approve of, in music he clearly did not like classical music because it "sounded like someone practicing their scales". He would not help me learn about working on cars because he thought I might grow up to be an auto mechanic. his big idea was to in some way work for the state, he carried mail, and I started as a public school teacher. With my own children, my wife and I did everything we could to allow them to pursue whatever interest struck their fancy, Ballet, Gymnastics, voice lessons, photography, violin, claranet, if we could help them try it we did and we didn't try to push them in any particular direction, even in the music they listened to. I think our children did OK, in spite of all our screw-ups. Just the opposite, my mother used to gloat that because my brother and I turned out OK they must have been good parents, and that just grated on my nerves.

[chaz wyman]

I had a look at connie talbot. I don't think it is wise or fair to introduce someone so young to so much fame; there are so many horror stories; Lena Zavaroni, Brittany Spears, Michael Jackson.
I can gear she has a good voice but just don't find her appealing to listen to.

I agree that it is not good to 'push' a young child into any kind of preformance, but I do not know these children or their parents, so I can only hope for the best. When I was growing up I was discouraged from pursuing any interest that my father did not approve of, in music he clearly did not like classical music because it "sounded like someone practicing their scales". He would not help me learn about working on cars because he thought I might grow up to be an auto mechanic. his big idea was to in some way work for the state, he carried mail, and I started as a public school teacher. With my own children, my wife and I did everything we could to allow them to pursue whatever interest struck their fancy, Ballet, Gymnastics, voice lessons, photography, violin, claranet, if we could help them try it we did and we didn't try to push them in any particular direction, even in the music they listened to. I think our children did OK, in spite of all our screw-ups. Just the opposite, my mother used to gloat that because my brother and I turned out OK they must have been good parents, and that just grated on my nerves.

Parents are never good enough. I would not be surprised if at some point your kids accuse you of being to permissive.
I think the only rubric is that each parent gives as much as they can to achieve a generational improvement. Personally I got the most cursory help from my parents. My dad left early and my mum was never interested in her children, and just worked to get by spending her spare cash on he army of siamese cats. Never got a brass cent from dad except a US bank note in the xmas and birthday card - a guilt gesture, more than likely.
So you missed out on music lessons - do them NOW! It is never too late to learn. I took a Masters a couple of years ago, I did sculpture last year and am doing stained glass this year.

[thedoc]

So you missed out on music lessons - do them NOW! It is never too late to learn. I took a Masters a couple of years ago, I did sculpture last year and am doing stained glass this year.

Actually I took piano lessons, but he didn't like the kind of music I liked, and I am relearning the piano now. We had been contemplating some kind of keyboard when we got the new house but couldn't decide exactly what. In Aug. '10 our church burned down and another church that was closing in Oct '10 offered our congregation anything in their sancutary, we could have. One of the items was a Sohmer model 57 baby grand piano, and we volunteered to store it for them, - in our living room. The new church building is almost built, but in the mean time I decided that that corner of the living room would never look right without a baby grand piano in it, and we had two identical corners on each side of the fireplace that are bay windows. so I started looking and found a Baldwin 5' 8" baby grand that is now in the other bay window, and we are just waiting till the Sohmer goes into the church, and the living room is not at all crowded. There are 2 pieces that I picked up quickly because I had played them a lot, 'Fur Elise' and 1st movement of 'Moonlight Sonata', Beethoven. There are several others that I am working on and a few that are almost there. I also did an arrangment of the theme from Schlindlers List for piano and keyboard that we may do as a prelude in the new church.

[chaz wyman]

So you missed out on music lessons - do them NOW! It is never too late to learn. I took a Masters a couple of years ago, I did sculpture last year and am doing stained glass this year.

Actually I took piano lessons, but he didn't like the kind of music I liked, and I am relearning the piano now. We had been contemplating some kind of keyboard when we got the new house but couldn't decide exactly what. In Aug. '10 our church burned down and another church that was closing in Oct '10 offered our congregation anything in their sancutary, we could have.
Sounds like god is seriously pissed off with you guys, maybe you should praise Allah?

One of the items was a Sohmer model 57 baby grand piano, and we volunteered to store it for them, - in our living room. The new church building is almost built, but in the mean time I decided that that corner of the living room would never look right without a baby grand piano in it, and we had two identical corners on each side of the fireplace that are bay windows. so I started looking and found a Baldwin 5' 8" baby grand that is now in the other bay window, and we are just waiting till the Sohmer goes into the church, and the living room is not at all crowded. There are 2 pieces that I picked up quickly because I had played them a lot, 'Fur Elise' and 1st movement of 'Moonlight Sonata', Beethoven. There are several others that I am working on and a few that are almost there. I also did an arrangment of the theme from Schlindlers List for piano and keyboard that we may do as a prelude in the new church.

Fire Insurance?

[thedoc]

Fire Insurance?

Yes, for our house in Oct. '08 and we moved into the new house in Dec. '09 and we were lucky to have enough insurance to rebuild.
With the church in Aug. '10 the insurance company would not insure the old building for a higher amount and now we find that it is not enough to build the new building, so we are raising extra money.

According to a member on another forum God should really be pissed off at us, we have a woman Pastor, the president of church counsil is a woman, we have a woman music director, all in conflict with this verse,
"1 Corinthians 14:34-35
New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."
Obviously we think St. Pauls words may have been tampered with. And yes, we could also be accused of 'cherry picking' the scriptures for the ones we like.

FYI, the fire in the church was started by a lightning strike, maybe that was symbolic.

[chaz wyman]

Fire Insurance?

Yes, for our house in Oct. '08 and we moved into the new house in Dec. '09 and we were lucky to have enough insurance to rebuild.
With the church in Aug. '10 the insurance company would not insure the old building for a higher amount and now we find that it is not enough to build the new building, so we are raising extra money.

According to a member on another forum God should really be pissed off at us, we have a woman Pastor, the president of church counsil is a woman, we have a woman music director, all in conflict with this verse,
"1 Corinthians 14:34-35
New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."
Obviously we think St. Pauls words may have been tampered with. And yes, we could also be accused of 'cherry picking' the scriptures for the ones we like.

FYI, the fire in the church was started by a lightning strike, maybe that was symbolic.

I'm not sure 'cherry picking' counts in this case. I don't know of any passage in the bible that would give licence to women priests.
I can think of a few that support that negative view though.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Mark 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Oddly he seems to have it in for barren women too - Luke 1:7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years (to name one example).
Here JC insults his own mother
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
It goes on and on.

[thedoc]

One of the problems that some people bring on themselves is that there many different verses in the Bible that address many different topics. The problems start when someone tries to apply all verses to all situations, it just doesn't work and then gives support to the criticism that the bible contradicts itself.

Another difficulty is that much of the Bible is Mythology and must be read as such, it is not all a literal history and is not a science text. The stories are symbolic and represent a lesson, and when read this way the lesson can be found and truth can be learned.

[chaz wyman]

One of the problems that some people bring on themselves is that there many different verses in the Bible that address many different topics. The problems start when someone tries to apply all verses to all situations, it just doesn't work and then gives support to the criticism that the bible contradicts itself.

Another difficulty is that much of the Bible is Mythology and must be read as such, it is not all a literal history and is not a science text. The stories are symbolic and represent a lesson, and when read this way the lesson can be found and truth can be learned.

I don't think you really have the essence of the problem. Your approach seems to assume that the Bible must be a coherent account. It is not. The problem does not rest on the fact that people mis-apply verses out of their correct context, but it derives from the fact that the Bible does not have a uniform and consistent method, or system of belief.

The simple fast is that the Bible is a diverse collection from a long list of different writers from diverse times, places and beliefs.
This is essentially why there are as many possible interpretations to be drawn from it as there are readers; and why there is a diverse and incompatible range of sects, and subdivisions of Christianity, and Judaism.

For example Mark says that salvation is through faith alone; Matthew, Luke an john do not agree, you need good works, follow rules; righteousness; Do good (whatever that is?)

Moreover you find contradictions not only across writers but within the text of single writers.

For Example:

Should we let others see our good works?
YES
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.
NO
Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:3, 5
Do not ye after their works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men.

[thedoc]

One of the problems that some people bring on themselves is that there many different verses in the Bible that address many different topics. The problems start when someone tries to apply all verses to all situations, it just doesn't work and then gives support to the criticism that the bible contradicts itself.

Another difficulty is that much of the Bible is Mythology and must be read as such, it is not all a literal history and is not a science text. The stories are symbolic and represent a lesson, and when read this way the lesson can be found and truth can be learned.

I don't think you really have the essence of the problem. Your approach seems to assume that the Bible must be a coherent account. It is not. The problem does not rest on the fact that people mis-apply verses out of their correct context, but it derives from the fact that the Bible does not have a uniform and consistent method, or system of belief.

The simple fast is that the Bible is a diverse collection from a long list of different writers from diverse times, places and beliefs.This is essentially why there are as many possible interpretations to be drawn from it as there are readers; and why there is a diverse and incompatible range of sects, and subdivisions of Christianity, and Judaism.

For example Mark says that salvation is through faith alone; Matthew, Luke an john do not agree, you need good works, follow rules; righteousness; Do good (whatever that is?)

Moreover you find contradictions not only across writers but within the text of single writers.

For Example:

Should we let others see our good works?
YES
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.
NO
Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:3, 5
Do not ye after their works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men.

Yes I understand this and agree with what you say, and that fits with what I was saying about different verses relating to different situations. Different writings from different authors and different times would naturally have different perspectives on the issues they are facing. I don't believe that I calimed that the Bible was a uniform and coherent document.

Some religious teachers have tried to alter the teachings about 'good works' by claiming that they will be the result of faith. So they are trying to rationalize these 2 teachings on 'good works'.

[chaz wyman]

One of the problems that some people bring on themselves is that there many different verses in the Bible that address many different topics. The problems start when someone tries to apply all verses to all situations, it just doesn't work and then gives support to the criticism that the bible contradicts itself.

Another difficulty is that much of the Bible is Mythology and must be read as such, it is not all a literal history and is not a science text. The stories are symbolic and represent a lesson, and when read this way the lesson can be found and truth can be learned.

I don't think you really have the essence of the problem. Your approach seems to assume that the Bible must be a coherent account. It is not. The problem does not rest on the fact that people mis-apply verses out of their correct context, but it derives from the fact that the Bible does not have a uniform and consistent method, or system of belief.

The simple fast is that the Bible is a diverse collection from a long list of different writers from diverse times, places and beliefs.This is essentially why there are as many possible interpretations to be drawn from it as there are readers; and why there is a diverse and incompatible range of sects, and subdivisions of Christianity, and Judaism.

For example Mark says that salvation is through faith alone; Matthew, Luke an john do not agree, you need good works, follow rules; righteousness; Do good (whatever that is?)

Moreover you find contradictions not only across writers but within the text of single writers.

For Example:

Should we let others see our good works?
YES
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.
NO
Matthew 6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:3, 5
Do not ye after their works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men.

Yes I understand this and agree with what you say, and that fits with what I was saying about different verses relating to different situations. Different writings from different authors and different times would naturally have different perspectives on the issues they are facing. I don't believe that I calimed that the Bible was a uniform and coherent document.

Some religious teachers have tried to alter the teachings about 'good works' by claiming that they will be the result of faith. So they are trying to rationalize these 2 teachings on 'good works'.

For me this all points to a fallacy to claim these words as those of god, as so many do.

[thedoc]

For me this all points to a fallacy to claim these words as those of god, as so many do.

Unless God was speaking to different people at different times in different places. In the end it doesn't really matter as each person will have their own different take on what they read and what they believe.

And no, I'm not trying to defend God or the Bible. Each person will take them for what they believe they are, or are not.

[chaz wyman]

For me this all points to a fallacy to claim these words as those of god, as so many do.

Unless God was speaking to different people at different times in different places. In the end it doesn't really matter as each person will have their own different take on what they read and what they believe.

That does not satisfy in anyway. That only suggests that god is a liar, or ignorant about key facts of his own creation

And no, I'm not trying to defend God or the Bible. Each person will take them for what they believe they are, or are not.

[Kayla]

chaz it could also be that god recognizes that individual circumstances are different and changes the message to the particular circumstances

[thedoc]

That does not satisfy in anyway. That only suggests that god is a liar, or ignorant about key facts of his own creation

I guess I'm not sure what you are looking for in religion, perhaps if you tell me what it is that you are looking for, I might be able to help, but probably not. But I might have an idea where to look.

If you are just looking to discredit or disprove, I really don't see the point. If you don't believe in God or the Bible, OK, what does it matter then if others do? I do agree that if someone is hurting others, someting needs to be done, but hurt done in the name of religion is false and is not part of any religious teaching that I accept as true. That some people act and claim that it is because of religion, is false and not really a part of any religion. So we can talk about religion, or we can condem the false acts done in the name of religion.

[chaz wyman]

chaz it could also be that god recognizes that individual circumstances are different and changes the message to the particular circumstances

So you mean that god has to comply with human belief?

So you mean that because some humans want to hide menstruating women away because they believe them to be unclean, or that adulterous women need to be stones; god makes it a rule and writes in in his book. Then when people change their minds god is forced to do likewise??

Is that what you mean?


Or if people think the foreskin is evil, god has to make it a rule to cut it off every child - oh but wait - that only applies to Muslims and Jews. So what is god's position on circumcision?