We are not alone..

[thedoc]

So if we have an infinite universe ,,??
then the bb would have to produce a lot more matter than it did , the bb isn't still spewing out matter , the expansion is supposed to still be happening and
according to some weird science now accelerating again ,
but the volume of matter has already been delivered ,
so the bb cannot have been all of an infinite universe ,
the known universe would be just a pinhead compared to infinity ,
so thats not enough matter to fill infinity ,
and as stated before , galaxies are spread evenly throughout ,
so the unknown universe should be just more of the same ,
in an infinite universe model ,
So for those of you who can grasp logic ,
Either the universe is not infinite ,
or the bbt is incorrect,
and that decision is an easy one for me ,
because there is no logic to ,,,FINITE ,,,!!!

Your 2 assumptions of an infinite universe and the Big bang are not compatable, so an infinite universe does not disprove the Big Bang, the Big Bang model is not part of an infinite universe.

That the Big Bang is not 'still spewing out matter' is an assumption that has not been proven, but it seems to fit the models. It is possible that the Big bang was not a 'one time' event, but continues as fragments spread throughout the universe. There is no observational evidence, with the possible exception of the 'large scale structure' , but then no-one is looking for it, that I am aware of.

[Godfree]

As Mr Tillingborn will find out , it is hard to get main stream science ,
that challenges the bb ,
could have something to do with where they get their funding ,,??/

Ahhhhh - a Conspiracy Theory. Obviously the churches of the world disguised as scientists and Members of the Royal Society have conspired to cook the books!|!



now from memory what you call logic is not exactly the same as I see it ,
you challenged my most probable , so lets here your definition ,,??
what logic is this you speak of ,,???[/quote]


[/quote]
The bb is a theory , so why should we give it any more credibility ,
than any other theory , and why would a web site ban me ,
for simply challenging the bbt,
Regardless of how much you bleet on and deny it ,
Hubble was a very religious man , and Einstein , was no Atheist .
and the fact that both were in america being funded by the USA government ,
at the time , has nothing to do with it according to you ,,???
Lets look at some facts , Evolution ,
does america accept evolutiuon , do they promote it as reality ,
or are they playing along with creation to get elected ,
american society sees religion as real , and the bbt ,
is part of that supposed reality ,
religion has been trying to get science to prove religion ,
for a very long time , so the bb is just perfect , taylor made ,
in the beginning , according to science ,,,
you really only see what you want to Chaz,
you are as prejudice as a fundamentalist ,
a fixed closed mind ,

[thedoc]

Check out Cornerstone TV, the Origins series.

[tillingborn]

I admire your honesty , I think it is the key to knowledge ,

Well it's a start.

if we aren't ruthlessly honest with ourselves ,,we can indulge the ,
emotions of a subject and ignore the rational logic that we see .

I think ignoring rational logic is underrated. I agree that it is entirely logical that you cannot create something from nothing, I don't think it therefore is true. There are aspects of quantum mechanicsthat defy logic, but QM is an extremely successful model.

There is a lot of proof , things like the age of the Earth ,
they may be a wee bit out , but it's pretty close , certainly not 6000 yrs ,
and evolution , same , there may be a few details to adjust ,
but the basic picture is right , life evolves , continuously ,
the process is happening now ,

Why do you think the age of the Earth is relevant to anything I have said? Presumably you are citing this as evidence for an infinite universe, but none of it is inconsistent with a big bang that happened 13.7 billion years ago.

and space and planets also has it's cycle,

Not sure what you mean by this. Stuff has happened, is happening and will continue to do so; if that's a 'cycle' I wouldn't disagree, but I feel you mean rather more.

man has spent over 80 years on bbt maths , and they still have not proved it ,

Well, if you ask me, no amount of time spent on maths proves anything other than that the maths is consistent. I like Albert Einstein on this:
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain: and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

I would like to see a bit more time spent on repeating cycle concepts,

Have you considered the possibility that people have spent as much time as they think worthwhile on the subject already?

you know ,, infinity , a never ending process that had no beginning ,
a repeating cycle , you trusted me to bother looking up red and dead ,
trust me enough to run repeating cycle over in your brain ,
and see what you come up with , you might surprise yourself ,

I don't know what is supposed to be repeating. If you believe in an infinite universe, you are surely commited to an infinite set of states it could be in, which therefore will not repeat. If you are talking about recycling on a galactic scale, you are committed to accepting that there is no causal connection between galaxies; so that, for instance, gravity is a localised phenomenon. That at least would explain why the universe doesn't collapse and I suppose you could posit tired gravitons to explain it. I dunno, what are you actually on about Godfree?

I have several references to sites and individuals on the ,
Big bang is Busted , thread here by me a year or so ago ,
Micheal Lewis ,,"Thebigbangneverhappened.com" , I think , might be .org ,,??

It's .org. What do you suppose it shows that you are not alone in your thinking?

When was it that you realised that the Big Bang was nothing more than a Christian conspiracy?
When you re-run that part of your life you will realise that you too are indulgent of your emotions and have abandoned logic.

Oh, I see. Thanks for that Chaz. Godfree, trust me enough to run this over in your brain: you do not have to be a religious nutter to believe in the big bang.

Blimey, I can't keep up; this has been posted since I wrote the above.

religion has been trying to get science to prove religion ,
for a very long time , so the bb is just perfect , taylor made ,
in the beginning , according to science ,,,
you really only see what you want to Chaz,
you are as prejudice as a fundamentalist ,
a fixed closed mind ,

The idea that 'Science' exists is an organised structure in the way of religions is ludicrous. It is true that there are foundations that give grants to people willing to put a religious slant on things, there are even universities funded by religious organisations, but to extrapolate that the millions of different people with different interests and beliefs involved in science are all involved in some steady state cover up is laughable. To equate anyone with a fundamentalist because they happen to disagree with you is a disgrace; to accuse someone of having a fixed closed mind simply because it isn't open to the codswallop you would fill it with is risible.
Get this Godfree: I do believe in the big bang. I don't believe in god. There are a great many contributors and scientists who could say the same.

[chaz wyman]

you really only see what you want to Chaz,
you are as prejudice as a fundamentalist ,
a fixed closed mind ,

Says that man that ignored this:

Oh wait a minute Alexander Friedmann was working for an ATHEIST government what he derived his equations based on Einstein, an ATHEIST.

Because it conflicts with his little Conspiracy Theory

[Godfree]

I admire your honesty , I think it is the key to knowledge ,

Well it's a start.
[
Blimey, I can't keep up; this has been posted since I wrote the above.

religion has been trying to get science to prove religion ,
for a very long time , so the bb is just perfect , taylor made ,
in the beginning , according to science ,,,
you really only see what you want to Chaz,
you are as prejudice as a fundamentalist ,
a fixed closed mind ,

The idea that 'Science' exists is an organised structure in the way of religions is ludicrous. It is true that there are foundations that give grants to people willing to put a religious slant on things, there are even universities funded by religious organisations, but to extrapolate that the millions of different people with different interests and beliefs involved in science are all involved in some steady state cover up is laughable. To equate anyone with a fundamentalist because they happen to disagree with you is a disgrace; to accuse someone of having a fixed closed mind simply because it isn't open to the codswallop you would fill it with is risible.
Get this Godfree: I do believe in the big bang. I don't believe in god. There are a great many contributors and scientists who could say the same.

Well done , I did get the impression you were defending religion ,,??
I never suggested every scientists was part of a christian conspiracy ,
But Hubble was very religious , and he persuaded Einstein to change from his steady state model to the bbt ,
History is full of scholars , who were also priests , or monks ,
I never realized until recently , Sir Isaac Newton was a very religious man ,
and did more writing/work on religious papers than science ,,???
Kepler spent most of his life on a failed theory ,
trying to mix science and religion , or find a meaning in the shapes of things,?
So lets not pretend that education has not been heavily influenced by religion
If you live in the bible belt of america , do you think you will get ,
a realistic education on Evolution and Astronomy,,???
If you grow up in Iran or Nigeria , Indonesia , etc , what chance ,
of you getting an honest or real impression of the world ,
Very little , far more likely be a one eyed prejudiced piece of propaganda ,
New Zealand , again , one of the top three , least corrupt countries ,
in the world , dictatorships corruption , religion ,
these are all in the way of getting real and honest,,,!!!!

[Godfree]

you really only see what you want to Chaz,
you are as prejudice as a fundamentalist ,
a fixed closed mind ,

Says that man that ignored this:

Oh wait a minute Alexander Friedmann was working for an ATHEIST government what he derived his equations based on Einstein, an ATHEIST.

Because it conflicts with his little Conspiracy Theory

You havn't upgraded your knowledge since university ,
a lot of the advances in Astronomy , have occurred this century ,
the observation evidence I keep referring to , is from this century ,
when they come up with a new model that fits the new data ,
we might start to get close to reality ,
but until then , they are just flogging a dead horse ,,
up shit creek without a paddle ,
down a blind alley ,
PULLING THEMSELVES ,,,

[chaz wyman]

Because it conflicts with his little Conspiracy Theory

You havn't upgraded your knowledge since university ,,

My knowledge base grows everyday.

[tillingborn]

Well done , I did get the impression you were defending religion ,,??

Where did you get that idea? If you believe honesty is the key to knowledge you really ought to start with yourself; I don't believe I said anything that would persuade anyone I was defending religion unless they assumed that defending the big bang equates to defending religion.

I never suggested every scientists was part of a christian conspiracy ,
But Hubble was very religious , and he persuaded Einstein to change from his steady state model to the bbt ,

Einstein was uneasy with his own field equations, it was clear that the universe should collapse under the force of gravity, so he introduced the cosmological constant, a force he made up to counteract gravity. When Hubble's observations demonstrated that the universe is expanding Einstein realised there was no need for the cosmological constant and that the consequence of his own theory, that the universe could not possibly be static, was true. Einstein himself said it was the greatest blunder of his career. He was not persuaded by Hubble's beliefs, Einstein was persuaded by Hubble's science.

History is full of scholars , who were also priests , or monks ,
I never realized until recently , Sir Isaac Newton was a very religious man ,
and did more writing/work on religious papers than science ,,???

And more even than on religion he wrote and worked on alchemy. This is confirmation bias; given that Newton was religious, what do you think the implications for gravity are?

Kepler spent most of his life on a failed theory ,
trying to mix science and religion , or find a meaning in the shapes of things,?

Kepler discovered that the ratio of the seperation of the planets could be described with surprising accuracy by placing one Platonic solid inside another. Nonetheless his study of Tycho Brahe's meticulous observations allowed him to deduce his laws of planetary motion, which Newton was able to use to formulate the law of gravity, confirming the suggestion of the canon Copernicus that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, a position that landed Galileo in hot water with the Catholic church. Yes indeed, lots of very clever people have been religious, but it makes no difference to their discoveries whether they believe they are descibing how god runs the universe or how the universe happens to work.

So lets not pretend that education has not been heavily influenced by religion

Who is pretending any such thing? What a ridiculous thing to say.

If you live in the bible belt of america , do you think you will get ,
a realistic education on Evolution and Astronomy,,???
If you grow up in Iran or Nigeria , Indonesia , etc , what chance ,
of you getting an honest or real impression of the world ,
Very little , far more likely be a one eyed prejudiced piece of propaganda ,
New Zealand , again , one of the top three , least corrupt countries ,
in the world , dictatorships corruption , religion ,
these are all in the way of getting real and honest,,,!!!!

You are ranting. What chance of getting a real and honest understanding of other people if you make idiotic assumptions?

[Godfree]

If you live in the bible belt of america , do you think you will get ,
a realistic education on Evolution and Astronomy,,???
If you grow up in Iran or Nigeria , Indonesia , etc , what chance ,
of you getting an honest or real impression of the world ,
Very little , far more likely be a one eyed prejudiced piece of propaganda ,
New Zealand , again , one of the top three , least corrupt countries ,
in the world , dictatorships corruption , religion ,
these are all in the way of getting real and honest,,,!!!!

You are ranting. What chance of getting a real and honest understanding of other people if you make idiotic assumptions?[/quote]
Is getting a "real and honest understanding of other people" my aim here ,,???
or is it to get a real and honest understanding of reality ,
are other people the key to understanding reality ,,??
or are they just headless chickens ,
if I was to base my view of the world on ,"other people"
I might as well sign in at my local church now ,
to know reality , is to stand up against the tide of ignorance , most people are ignorant ,
most peoples grasp of reality is very poor ,
lets face it most of the people even in the west , are religious , and know little of reality ,,!!!

[Godfree]

Because it conflicts with his little Conspiracy Theory

You havn't upgraded your knowledge since university ,,

My knowledge base grows everyday.

Thats right Chaz , thats why you keep replying to
my posts , your knowledge grows a little each time,,,!!!

[xenuwonder]

Because it conflicts with his little Conspiracy Theory

My knowledge base grows everyday.

Thats right Chaz , thats why you keep replying to
my posts , your knowledge grows a little each time,,,!!!

I'll chime in here and rein you kids in a bit.

Ignorance is bliss and it is a common trait in the world of science and cosmology as it is the underlying reason for the popular belief in the BBT.

Because we can't ever know of what happened before "our" bing bang we choose to not comment on it at all. We feel safe and warm doing this.

How EGOTISTICAL of HUMANS to think like this.

Give up your armchair science and commentary and come up with something credible please.

And a little less in the way of personal attacks would be most welcomed on this thread. Atributing someones knowledge to replying to your posts Godfire, I mean, Godfree is not required around here, we're not in the business of hurting Wyman's feelings or anyone elses for that matter.

Xenu.

[thedoc]

And a little less in the way of personal attacks would be most welcomed on this thread. Atributing someones knowledge to replying to your posts Godfire, I mean, Godfree is not required around here, we're not in the business of hurting Wyman's feelings or anyone elses for that matter.

Xenu.

Don't you know that hostility and abuse are S.O.P. on an internet forum, that's the only way a participant can show that they have a bigger dick than other posters.

Oh, and most of us do not have access to a very large astronomical telescope to make the necessary observations on which to base cosmology. We rely on the expertise of others.

[chaz wyman]

My knowledge base grows everyday.

Thats right Chaz , thats why you keep replying to
my posts , your knowledge grows a little each time,,,!!!

That's because I learn how wrong you always are!

[chaz wyman]

Thats right Chaz , thats why you keep replying to
my posts , your knowledge grows a little each time,,,!!!

I'll chime in here and rein you kids in a bit.

Ignorance is bliss and it is a common trait in the world of science and cosmology as it is the underlying reason for the popular belief in the BBT.

Because we can't ever know of what happened before "our" bing bang we choose to not comment on it at all. We feel safe and warm doing this.

I already said this several times.

How EGOTISTICAL of HUMANS to think like this.

Give up your armchair science and commentary and come up with something credible please.

If you are going to be insulting, at least have read the posts you are attacking.

And a little less in the way of personal attacks would be most welcomed on this thread.
The you need to heed the wisdom of your own words.
Atributing someones knowledge to replying to your posts Godfire, I mean, Godfree is not required around here, we're not in the business of hurting Wyman's feelings or anyone elses for that matter.
Though many try.
Xenu.