Dreams

[Lone Wolf]

.[/quote]

So how many cases has she solved? There is no guarantee that superstitious idiots don't work for the FBI. The police have no right to give those charlatans any credence at all.

I find it very difficult to be absolutely positive that my opinion is correct on anything. I have no knowledge of this woman's success and only learned about her through my association with law enforcement as a volunteer. My total experience with her involved only what I stated above. I have not seen her since and have no knowledge beyond her giving me information about my dream that I had not found in the twenty years since I had the dream.

I think that arbitrarily stating a position closes your mind to other possible perspectives. Denying that psychics exist closes the mind to a possibility that may indeed be true. That there are idiots and charlatans in this world is a fact. However, I prefer to take people as they appear to me without sticking a label on them.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

It's hardly arbitrary. Do you also believe that magicians like David Copperfield are doing real magic? Do you think only some magicians are 'real' magicians? What's the difference? It's a TRICK. It's been demonstrated many times how these people do it. They all follow the same formula and idiots lap it up. I wouldn't care as long as 'psychics' marketed themselves in the same way that magicians do, as being part of show business, but they don't. They pretend to really be in contact with people's loved ones which makes them despicable and dangerous. Stop being so gullible and naive. Those arseholes depend on people like you for a living.

[Lone Wolf]

How can they depend on me for a living? I have never paid anyone for information. You seem to be very angry about these "arseholes". Is that because you or someone you love fell prey to a charlatan? You seem also to be angry with the "idiots who lap it up".

As far as magicians are concerned, they are honest in that they tell you up front what they are doing is sleight of hand or misdirection, so I know they have no magical powers. As far as being gullible and naive, I simply still have an open mind on the subject and am willing to consider that it is possible for some people to have a gift. Why does that bother you?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How can they depend on me for a living? I have never paid anyone for information. You seem to be very angry about these "arseholes". Is that because you or someone you love fell prey to a charlatan? You seem also to be angry with the "idiots who lap it up".

As far as magicians are concerned, they are honest in that they tell you up front what they are doing is sleight of hand or misdirection, so I know they have no magical powers. As far as being gullible and naive, I simply still have an open mind on the subject and am willing to consider that it is possible for some people to have a gift. Why does that bother you?

Exactly. Magicians are honest. You only have an 'open mind' because you know nothing about it and you haven't bothered to look into it properly. So you gave someone a bunch of numbers and you think ghosts told that person about some dream you had decades ago? I don't know whether or not that women gets payment for her crap, but she probably gets off on the adulation of gullible twits. People would say 'Ooooh, really?? You talk to dead people? Ahhh, how AMAZING!' Why should a dead person know about your dream anyway?? Yes, I do find it irritating when people don't think. You came onto a philosophy forum, which should be full of people who think deeply, and said that there are genuine psychics out there. Well I'm calling you out on it. Superstition is dangerous. There is no such thing as ghosts, ergo no 'psychics'. Do you believe in fairies and leprechauns as well? Would you believe her if she said the fairies told her about your dream?

[Lone Wolf]

Exactly. Magicians are honest. You only have an 'open mind' because you know nothing about it and you haven't bothered to look into it properly. So you gave someone a bunch of numbers and you think ghosts told that person about some dream you had decades ago? I don't know whether or not that women gets payment for her crap, but she probably gets off on the adulation of gullible twits. People would say 'Ooooh, really?? You talk to dead people? Ahhh, how AMAZING!' Why should a dead person know about your dream anyway?? Yes, I do find it irritating when people don't think. You came onto a philosophy forum, which should be full of people who think deeply, and said that there are genuine psychics out there. Well I'm calling you out on it. Superstition is dangerous. There is no such thing as ghosts, ergo no 'psychics'. Do you believe in fairies and leprechauns as well? Would you believe her if she said the fairies told her about your dream?[/quote]


Why don't you answer my question? Why does what I believe bother you?

I came on a philosophy forum because I do spend a great deal of time thinking deeply. The fact that I happen to think there may be true psychics simply means that I haven't come on any real proof that denies their existence. I do agree that most so called psychics are charlatans, but I haven't ruled out that there may be some that do have a gift. And, by the way, I don't believe in ghosts or that the dead can communicate with us either. I don't believe in fairies or leprechauns either. However, I have no problem with people who have latched on to those beliefs and am willing to allow them their fantasy.

As far as the woman I mentioned above is concerned, she never made any claim to have psychic powers. I learned about her from a detective and simply went to ask her about my dream. She didn't go into a trance or call for help from the ether. She simply responded to my description of my dream with two questions and left me to figure out what it might mean. I paid her nothing so how does she benefit from asking me the questions? Which brings me back to my question: Why does what I believe bother you?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Then how are you defining a 'psychic'? Are you saying she just read your mind? How is she helping the FBI? How does she define her 'gift'? Does she interview suspects to read their minds and find out if they are guilty? How many crimes has she solved and which crimes specifically if any. You need to be more specific. You are very vague. She gave you two questions about your dream? Big deal. I'm bothered because here I am having to do all your thinking for you. Can't you do it for yourself?

[chaz wyman]

The profession of 'magician' is one based on deception.
Most magicians operate by keeping that deception hidden - thus magicians are not 'honest' by definition.

In fact magicians that admit that what they do is the art of deception tend to eschew the title 'magician' in favour of 'illusionist'.
"Magic" implies that the act is an example of the suspension of the laws of nature.

~Psychics, can fall into two categories.
1) People who intentionally deceive their clients.
2) People who also deceive themselves as to their "powers"

Thus psychics are dishonest; either intentionally or unintentionally.

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm bothered because here I am having to do all your thinking for you. Can't you do it for yourself?

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

1. You are most presumptuous to believe you are doing any of my thinking. You haven't shared my life experiences and you know absolutely nothing about me. Since I don't share your opinion, I am obviously wrong in my opinion. You have a rule that psychics are charlatans and will not allow that there might be any exceptions to your rule. I don't happen to share your opinion and have so stated. You haven't given me any arguments to support your thesis and therefore prove to me that you are right. Instead, you attack a woman that I heard about from a friend, went to see, spent about five minutes with her, and got some help with definition of a dream. That she had some intuitive ability seems likely to me.

2. Another label. I am deluded. Again from someone who knows me not.


So be it. I shall not dignify your singleminded arguments about my belief with any further responses. If you wish to discuss dreams, I will be happy to accomodate you.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The profession of 'magician' is one based on deception.
Most magicians operate by keeping that deception hidden - thus magicians are not 'honest' by definition.

In fact magicians that admit that what they do is the art of deception tend to eschew the title 'magician' in favour of 'illusionist'.
"Magic" implies that the act is an example of the suspension of the laws of nature.

~Psychics, can fall into two categories.
1) People who intentionally deceive their clients.
2) People who also deceive themselves as to their "powers"

Thus psychics are dishonest; either intentionally or unintentionally.

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

Illusionist or conjurer, but they don't claim to be doing real magic a la Harry Potter. I guess that there are even idiots around who think they are though.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

@ Lonewolf You mean my arguments, as opposed to your lack of any argument.

[chaz wyman]

I'm bothered because here I am having to do all your thinking for you. Can't you do it for yourself?

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

1. You are most presumptuous to believe you are doing any of my thinking. You haven't shared my life experiences and you know absolutely nothing about me. Since I don't share your opinion, I am obviously wrong in my opinion. You have a rule that psychics are charlatans and will not allow that there might be any exceptions to your rule. I don't happen to share your opinion and have so stated. You haven't given me any arguments to support your thesis and therefore prove to me that you are right. Instead, you attack a woman that I heard about from a friend, went to see, spent about five minutes with her, and got some help with definition of a dream. That she had some intuitive ability seems likely to me.

2. Another label. I am deluded. Again from someone who knows me not.


So be it. I shall not dignify your singleminded arguments about my belief with any further responses. If you wish to discuss dreams, I will be happy to accomodate you.

Philosophy is less about things believed, and more about how people choose those beliefs. It is more about how reliable knowledge and its foundation is, which is less about choice and more about evidence.

The tricks and illusions of the magicians and psychics are well know to the scientific community, and to psychologists in particular.
I suggest you free yourself of this delusion and investigate the problem with an open mind.

The "Great Randi", aka James Randi is one who once called himself an illusionist, and has provided a million dollars to anyone who can show any skill at being a psychic. I suggest you tell your friend about the million dollar challenge. If she is a psychic then, she could use the money for some great cause.
She could keep her 'gift' in tact by donating the whole amount to charity.


Details at the link below.

http://www.randi.org/site/

[chaz wyman]

The profession of 'magician' is one based on deception.
Most magicians operate by keeping that deception hidden - thus magicians are not 'honest' by definition.

In fact magicians that admit that what they do is the art of deception tend to eschew the title 'magician' in favour of 'illusionist'.
"Magic" implies that the act is an example of the suspension of the laws of nature.

~Psychics, can fall into two categories.
1) People who intentionally deceive their clients.
2) People who also deceive themselves as to their "powers"

Thus psychics are dishonest; either intentionally or unintentionally.

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

Illusionist or conjurer, but they don't claim to be doing real magic a la Harry Potter. I guess that there are even idiots around who think they are though.

Actually to 'conjure' is also laden with the implication that items are made to appear out of thin air as if by Magic.
What these people are actually doing is creating the illusion that such things are conjured.

A person who is called deluded is not insulted as much as one called an idiot.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The profession of 'magician' is one based on deception.
Most magicians operate by keeping that deception hidden - thus magicians are not 'honest' by definition.

In fact magicians that admit that what they do is the art of deception tend to eschew the title 'magician' in favour of 'illusionist'.
"Magic" implies that the act is an example of the suspension of the laws of nature.

~Psychics, can fall into two categories.
1) People who intentionally deceive their clients.
2) People who also deceive themselves as to their "powers"

Thus psychics are dishonest; either intentionally or unintentionally.

All people who believe in Magicians and Psychics are deluded.

Illusionist or conjurer, but they don't claim to be doing real magic a la Harry Potter. I guess that there are even idiots around who think they are though.

Actually to 'conjure' is also laden with the implication that items are made to appear out of thin air as if by Magic.
What these people are actually doing is creating the illusion that such things are conjured.

A person who is called deluded is not insulted as much as one called an idiot.

At least they aren't preying on the distressed and vulnerable, claiming to be in contact with people's dead children and loved ones. Conjurers are very proud of their skills, and rightly so. It takes years of practice and fine-tuning to make it look effortless and 'magical'. I have a problem with ones like David Blaine though, who use actors pretending to be people off the street to act oblivious to the hoist that's lifting him off the ground when he 'levitates' etc. etc...
I think those sort of 'magicians' are crossing the line and discrediting the profession.

[chaz wyman]

Illusionist or conjurer, but they don't claim to be doing real magic a la Harry Potter. I guess that there are even idiots around who think they are though.

Actually to 'conjure' is also laden with the implication that items are made to appear out of thin air as if by Magic.
What these people are actually doing is creating the illusion that such things are conjured.

A person who is called deluded is not insulted as much as one called an idiot.

At least they aren't preying on the distressed and vulnerable, claiming to be in contact with people's dead children and loved ones. Conjurers are very proud of their skills, and rightly so. It takes years of practice and fine-tuning to make it look effortless and 'magical'. I have a problem with ones like David Blaine though, who use actors pretending to be people off the street to act oblivious to the hoist that's lifting him off the ground when he 'levitates' etc. etc...
I think those sort of 'magicians' are crossing the line and discrediting the profession.

Deception is deception. Using actors is par for the course.