How to talk about ethics

[prof]

Could this be helpful in my project to discover a system so reasonable and plausible that folks will accept it as almost self-evident.? My project is to arrive at a good ethical theory, a coherent system of ethics, that will be persuasive to the world at large. In the future shall I initiate an ethics discussion with these words? What do you think?


We find ourselves engaged with the world and with other people. In the world we use things. And isn't it so that no matter what worth a thing may have we can manipulate it - because it's only a thing - it can never be as valuable as life is. If I wear it out and can afford to buy a replacement for it I will junk it; and my conscience is clear.

This is not the case with a person, though. If I manipulate a person, and have a sensitive conscience, one that is awake and not sleeping, it will bother my conscience that I have used people. That's a common experience.

The person who knows his/her ethics will take responsibility, and knows that there is no limit to how responsible one may be: no matter how much responsibility one has assumed, or volunteered for, one can always do more.

A face-to-face personal encounter with another person is the best kind of interaction to have. It ought to be a mutual I-Thou experience, one of mutual respect ....wouldn't you agree?

Our inner life is shaped most by the experiences we have had, and especially by the personal interactions. Isn't that so?"

Can we agree that it is wrong to manipulate people; that mutual respect is important; that taking on some reponsibility you can handle is the mature thing to do; that being sensitive to the needs of others is good; and that as we go through life the ideal is to have a clear conscience?

If we can, that is the beginning of ethical insight. We share common ground: We don’t want to use and abuse people; they are not things. They are individuals. Let’s treat them with courtesy, with civility, for that’s the kind of person that we are. I want to be a decent human being, and so do you. Okay?

What’s the right way to regard a human being? Do we erase them, as we would a number? Do we use them, as we would a thing? Or do we treasure them as someone we might be able to learn something from; or enjoy the company of; or someone we could appreciate? Can we get along with the people of the world? Can we be friends? Whatever the question, love is the answer. Am I wrong?

Enemies, revenge, burning heretics, drowning witches, holding slaves, wars, buying people, exploitation, never having enough no matter how comfortable you are, being greedy, being corrupt, seeking a bribe …. Let’s be done with all that! What do you think?

So here are some questions for us to talk over:

1) What's right with the world? What should I do to build on and strengthen what's right?
2) According to http://www.census.gov, the world's population reached 7,000,000,000 in April 2012. What could be done so that every creature on the planet has access to sufficient amounts of fresh air, clean water, and nutritious food?
3) What do I really want and what I'm willing to do to get there?
4) What principles should every person in the world live by? Are there any virtues which everyone should practice?
5) What can I do to make the world better? What’s wrong in this world, and how can we fix it?


I wish for you a high-quality life ! And I will work to make it happen.

[chaz wyman]

Could this be helpful in my project to discover a system so reasonable and plausible that folks will accept it as almost self-evident.? My project is to arrive at a good ethical theory, a coherent system of ethics, that will be persuasive to the world at large. In the future shall I initiate an ethics discussion with these words? What do you think?


We find ourselves engaged with the world and with other people. In the world we use things. And isn't it so that no matter what worth a thing may have we can manipulate it - because it's only a thing - it can never be as valuable as life is. If I wear it out and can afford to buy a replacement for it I will junk it; and my conscience is clear.

1). This does not work with environmental ethics.

This is not the case with a person, though. If I manipulate a person, and have a sensitive conscience, one that is awake and not sleeping, it will bother my conscience that I have used people. That's a common experience.

2) Not if they are an enemy, criminal, or some form of "other". For some people even using their nearest and dearest does not p**** their conscience.


The person who knows his/her ethics will take responsibility, and knows that there is no limit to how responsible one may be: no matter how much responsibility one has assumed, or volunteered for, one can always do more.

3) Nope. Most people are conscious of limits, and knowing their ethics is, in part, setting those limits.

A face-to-face personal encounter with another person is the best kind of interaction to have. It ought to be a mutual I-Thou experience, one of mutual respect ....wouldn't you agree?

4) Not necessarily. Depends on the context.

Our inner life is shaped most by the experiences we have had, and especially by the personal interactions. Isn't that so?"

5) For some.

Can we agree that it is wrong to manipulate people; that mutual respect is important; that taking on some reponsibility you can handle is the mature thing to do; that being sensitive to the needs of others is good; and that as we go through life the ideal is to have a clear conscience?

6) Does a doctor not manipulate a patient; a teacher, a pupil; a wife, her husband?

If we can, that is the beginning of ethical insight. We share common ground: We don’t want to use and abuse people; they are not things. They are individuals. Let’s treat them with courtesy, with civility, for that’s the kind of person that we are. I want to be a decent human being, and so do you. Okay?

7) Whilst you and I in general terms might agree that this position is normative, that is not the case with others. It is the duty of a leader to manipulate and use other people - people unknown to them personally to the point that such use could be abuse, or misuse. It is not possible for people in power to be able to discriminate enough to know everyone they will affect.
A business owner has to use his staff, etc...


What’s the right way to regard a human being?

There is no 'right way', there are many humans and all are individual, deserving individual attention.
Do we erase them, as we would a number? Do we use them, as we would a thing? Or do we treasure them as someone we might be able to learn something from; or enjoy the company of; or someone we could appreciate? Can we get along with the people of the world? Can we be friends? Whatever the question, love is the answer. Am I wrong?

No one can possibly love everyone.
Enemies, revenge, burning heretics, drowning witches, holding slaves, wars, buying people, exploitation, never having enough no matter how comfortable you are, being greedy, being corrupt, seeking a bribe …. Let’s be done with all that! What do you think?

Sounds like a good idea - but if I have to love a greedy moron, we are going to get nowhere.

So here are some questions for us to talk over:

1) What's right with the world? What should I do to build on and strengthen what's right?
2) According to http://www.census.gov, the world's population reached 7,000,000,000 in April 2012. What could be done so that every creature on the planet has access to sufficient amounts of fresh air, clean water, and nutritious food?

The net number of humans has to be reduced severely. There is little enough room for us all, and less and less for the natural world. You might think you can use stuff, throw it away and get another - but each time you do that you pollute and diminish the natural resources of the planet.
What is the good of more and more people?

3) What do I really want and what I'm willing to do to get there?
4) What principles should every person in the world live by? Are there any virtues which everyone should practice?

There is nothing of the kind, nor should there be.

5) What can I do to make the world better? What’s wrong in this world, and how can we fix it?

Try not having any children for a start!

]I wish for you a high-quality life ! And I will work to make it happen.[/color][/size]

"Quality" - what's that?

[prof]

Greetings, Chaz

You and I can agree on lots of Spinoza's conclusions; as well as on environmental protection; on not having children, in our own case; and on giving individual attention to each individual.

I was addressing my remarks to you - to the readers at this Forum - not to others. Your low opinion of "others" may not be constructive in making for a better world, a more-ethical world.

At least we - you and I - have found common ground. Let's build on that.

My conception of "a good leader" differs from yours.

"Quality" means: "a property or a property name."

"A quality life" though, means a life filled with meaning; a highly-valuable life. [For purposes of Logic, meaning is a set of descriptive properties. Have you read, and studied, my thread here entitled 'Steps to Value Creation"? You may find it to be helpful.]

All criticisms and complaints were due last Wednesday.

Yours,
Prof

[chaz wyman]

Greetings, Chaz

You and I can agree on lots of Spinoza's conclusions; as well as on environmental protection; on not having children, in our own case; and on giving individual attention to each individual.

I was addressing my remarks to you - to the readers at this Forum - not to others. Your low opinion of "others" may not be constructive in making for a better world, a more-ethical world.

At least we - you and I - have found common ground. Let's build on that.

My conception of "a good leader" differs from yours.

"Quality" means: "a property or a property name."

"A quality life" though, means a life filled with meaning; a highly-valuable life. [For purposes of Logic, meaning is a set of descriptive properties. Have you read, and studied, my thread here entitled 'Steps to Value Creation"? You may find it to be helpful.]

All criticisms and complaints were due last Wednesday.

Yours,
Prof

You comment which accuses me of having a low opinion of others is purely reflexive. The 'low opinion' is your alone.
The point is that others' opinions do differ.
You want to find an ethical system that works for all so you will have to accommodate a range of opinions and attitudes in your system.
I did not say that my example of a leader was 'good' or 'bad' - I was pointing out that leadership results in certain necessities of action and attitude from empirical evidence alone.

If you don't like the way leadership works, then your ethical system will also have to include ways to prevent such leadership forming; preventing such 'bad' leaders gaining power; and the means by which 'good' leaders can emerge and collect power in an ever changing moral environment.

Your response to me did not include any ideas on these points so it appears you are not up to the challenge.

[reasonvemotion]

Prof:

All criticisms and complaints were due last Wednesday.

I think the Prof. has lost interest, it is now past his use by date. LOL

[chaz wyman]

Prof:

All criticisms and complaints were due last Wednesday.

I think the Prof. has lost interest, it is now past his use by date. LOL

Maybe Wednesday was the due date for his High School civics essay?