Who wants a soul?

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

Omniscientone wrote:
SecularCauses wrote: A light beam is not conscious, it does not think, it is not alive.
This is honestly just an intelligent guess. There is no evidence to support your claim, because fact is we don't have a clue how consciousness is produced.
It's more than that.
We know the basic conditions which apply when there is consciousness.
You might as well say we do not have the slightest clue how light is produced too. So what?
Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working, we have no reason to even posit the possibility that light might have consciousness or is alive.
Omniscientone
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by Omniscientone »

chaz wyman wrote: Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working.
But again you're stating something important to the question which might be wrong. We do not know from where consciousness emanates. It could be a fundamental property of the universe itself. The brain is almost certainly has a correlation with consciousness, but you can't currently argue that it arises from brain matter. That's just not proven.

Also arguing that conscious does not go on after life, because we have never seen it happen is like arguing that an apple can not be green, because all you've ever seen is red apples.
chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

Omniscientone wrote:
chaz wyman wrote: Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working.
But again you're stating something important to the question which might be wrong. We do not know from where consciousness emanates.

Rubbish. We only have evidence that it occurs in the presence of brain matter. to conjecture further you might as well say that unicorns exist.

It could be a fundamental property of the universe itself.
Just no. You are just being ridiculous.
The brain is almost certainly has a correlation with consciousness, but you can't currently argue that it arises from brain matter. That's just not proven.
I'm talking about evidence. Ultimately you can't prove anything. You can't prove you exist. But that is no way to proceed.

Also arguing that conscious does not go on after life, because we have never seen it happen is like arguing that an apple can not be green, because all you've ever seen is red apples.

You might as well argue that light exists in the dark - feasible, by your argument but completely stupid.
tillingborn
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by tillingborn »

chaz wyman wrote:Additionally the field is so weak that it is not even detectable from even a short distance. That is why what you say is complete rubbish.
chaz wyman wrote:The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings.
How can you tell if it's undetectable?
chaz wyman wrote:That's what theists say about god - "you can't prove he does not exist'.
Ah! Well, I think the claims theists make differ in that they are not detectable even in principle.
chaz wyman wrote:I rather not have any argument with that moron.
You are not compelled to.
MGL
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by MGL »

chaz wyman wrote:
The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ughts.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12990211
MGL
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by MGL »


Omniscientone: It could be a fundamental property of the universe itself.
Chaz: Just no. You are just being ridiculous.
Omniscientone: The brain is almost certainly has a correlation with consciousness, but you can't currently argue that it arises from brain matter. That's just not proven.
Chaz:I'm talking about evidence. Ultimately you can't prove anything. You can't prove you exist. But that is no way to proceed.

The evidences just suggests there is a correlation between the brain and consciousness. It may also suggest that the conscious mental behaviour of a person is equivalent to the physical behaviour of the brain ( including the brain waves it emits ).

However there is no evidence that the brain produces consciousness because there no good reason to assume that basic phenomenal properties (such as a sensation of redness) are not fundamental features of the fundamental particles and processes that the behaviour of the brain reduces to. If you can reduce the behaviour of the brain to fundamental properties of the universe, why should the property of its consciousness remain unreducable, but somehow mysteriously conjured only from some specific macroscopic configuration? Surely suggesting that consciousness is producable but not reducable is the more ridiculous position?
chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:

Omniscientone: It could be a fundamental property of the universe itself.
Chaz: Just no. You are just being ridiculous.
Omniscientone: The brain is almost certainly has a correlation with consciousness, but you can't currently argue that it arises from brain matter. That's just not proven.
Chaz:I'm talking about evidence. Ultimately you can't prove anything. You can't prove you exist. But that is no way to proceed.

The evidences just suggests there is a correlation between the brain and consciousness. It may also suggest that the conscious mental behaviour of a person is equivalent to the physical behaviour of the brain ( including the brain waves it emits ).

Exactly. And there is no evidence that there is a correlation between consciousness and other forms of matter.



However there is no evidence that the brain produces consciousness because there no good reason to assume that basic phenomenal properties (such as a sensation of redness) are not fundamental features of the fundamental particles and processes that the behaviour of the brain reduces to.

There is a correlation between a light bulb and light when you switch it on. You cannot absolutely prove that the light comes from the light bulb - its just a correlation. You can describe the phenomenon in great detail, as you can with consciousness, but at the end of the day there is only a correlation.
For these sort of questions you have to apply mitigated skepticism for practical reasons to avoid looking stupid.
You are simply asking the wrong question and getting a nihilistic answer.
The question is not is there consciousness in the universe, but why is it that we only seem to witness conscious behaviour in higher animals? And why is it that that conscious behaviour can be affected by damage to the brain?
Why is it that when the brain stops working, the consciousness stops too?

Your objections are without merit.





If you can reduce the behaviour of the brain to fundamental properties of the universe, why should the property of its consciousness remain unreducable, but somehow mysteriously conjured only from some specific macroscopic configuration? Surely suggesting that consciousness is producable but not reducable is the more ridiculous position?
Just because you don't have the answer to a question does not give you the right, to propose there is no cause and effect here. The same problem of induction happens to apply to all known physical phenomena. Light from a light bulb remains a puzzle. You always get to a point where explanations end and you can only describe what your model tells you.
The word 'gravity' does not tell you why all objects in the Universe are attracted to each other - it is just an irreducible fact of nature. Consciousness is a property of grey matter- this is an irreducible fact, also.
chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ughts.html

Speculation. From the UKs answer to the National Inquirer.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12990211

Interesting but not relevant.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

What can one say about one whom says the following:
Kant was right. We can never know the thing-in-itself.
Even you have to filter your experience via the senses.
Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working...
I said;"When the brain dies so does the electromagnetic field that it generates."
And then finally:
Complete rubbish.
to their opposition for saying something that is foreign to their way of thinking?

I say that anyone using their 'senses'/'mind' to try and understand any 'thing-in-itself' is foolish to say that any particular bit of possible data is "'complete' rubbish" and is more of a clone than they are an original thinking entity. After all, all new understandings were once considered unbelievable. I wonder, "where is their sense of adventure in the realm of possibility."

Consider that the four known fundamental interactions are electromagnetism, strong interaction ("strong nuclear force"), weak interaction ("weak nuclear force"), and gravitation, all of which deal with either attraction or repulsion. They all sound like a product of like and dissimilar charges to me.

The newest 'theory' replacing classical electro-magnetism is Quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED is the relativistic quantum field theory of electrodynamics. In essence, it describes how light and matter interact.

In particle physics, all known particles either have a positive, negative or no charge. To date no one knows why or how, this is true. Keep in mind that these charged particles constitutes all the universe, including you and I and our brains, What is this charge? Where does it come from? it is the glue that allows for everything there is, as we know it. It is the one mysterious thing that is responsible for everything.

To date no one knows where the mind came from, how exactly it works. Only that it is manifest in the brain, which uses electricity (Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric 'charge,') as in particles, common to the entire universe? The glue that holds everything together?

Are brains and thus minds an ends to a means of 13 billion years of adaptation, is a super mind on the horizon? Is this the whole point? Is the human mind the expression/manifestation of the fundamental electromagnetic force, (charged particles) the mysterious glue that holds everything together? How many actual things in and of themselves are invisible to human senses?

Is it wise for a human with a limited ability of sensing, to smite any new idea of a human that has a limited ability of sensing the universe, simply based only upon that which came before, that was once just as unbelievable? How do we advance if we condemn, with absolute certainty, possibility that may one day be seen as reality.

It is in fact possible that electromagnetic energy can neither be created nor destroyed and merely changes states. In a universe of relative size and time, how much is too small or too large to be seen/understood by relatively small and yet large humans? Any relative thing is possible in a relative universe. Any relative thing in the universe is a relative of the universe. ;-)

P.S. Being certain is of the past, while being uncertain is of the future. Or rather the past breeds certainty, while the future breeds uncertainty. Is that why some seem to fear the future? As in it they see their death? Especially those that have had a brush with it?
chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:What can one say about one whom says the following:
Kant was right. We can never know the thing-in-itself.
Even you have to filter your experience via the senses.
Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working...
I said;"When the brain dies so does the electromagnetic field that it generates."
And then finally:
Complete rubbish.
to their opposition for saying something that is foreign to their way of thinking?

I say that anyone using their 'senses'/'mind' to try and understand any 'thing-in-itself' is foolish to say that any particular bit of possible data is "'complete' rubbish" and is more of a clone than they are an original thinking entity. After all, all new understandings were once considered unbelievable. I wonder, "where is their sense of adventure in the realm of possibility."

Consider that the four known fundamental interactions are electromagnetism, strong interaction ("strong nuclear force"), weak interaction ("weak nuclear force"), and gravitation, all of which deal with either attraction or repulsion. They all sound like a product of like and dissimilar charges to me.

The newest 'theory' replacing classical electro-magnetism is Quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED is the relativistic quantum field theory of electrodynamics. In essence, it describes how light and matter interact.

In particle physics, all known particles either have a positive, negative or no charge. To date no one knows why or how, this is true. Keep in mind that these charged particles constitutes all the universe, including you and I and our brains, What is this charge? Where does it come from? it is the glue that allows for everything there is, as we know it. It is the one mysterious thing that is responsible for everything.

To date no one knows where the mind came from, how exactly it works. Only that it is manifest in the brain, which uses electricity (Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric 'charge,') as in particles, common to the entire universe? The glue that holds everything together?

Are brains and thus minds an ends to a means of 13 billion years of adaptation, is a super mind on the horizon? Is this the whole point? Is the human mind the expression/manifestation of the fundamental electromagnetic force, (charged particles) the mysterious glue that holds everything together? How many actual things in and of themselves are invisible to human senses?

Is it wise for a human with a limited ability of sensing, to smite any new idea of a human that has a limited ability of sensing the universe, simply based only upon that which came before, that was once just as unbelievable? How do we advance if we condemn, with absolute certainty, possibility that may one day be seen as reality.

It is in fact possible that electromagnetic energy can neither be created nor destroyed and merely changes states. In a universe of relative size and time, how much is too small or too large to be seen/understood by relatively small and yet large humans? Any relative thing is possible in a relative universe. Any relative thing in the universe is a relative of the universe. ;-)

P.S. Being certain is of the past, while being uncertain is of the future. Or rather the past breeds certainty, while the future breeds uncertainty. Is that why some seem to fear the future? As in it they see their death? Especially those that have had a brush with it?
I'm puzzled why you think any of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:What can one say about one whom says the following:
Kant was right. We can never know the thing-in-itself.
Even you have to filter your experience via the senses.
Since every example of conscious behaviour emanates from brain matter and seems to cease when the brain stops working...
I said;"When the brain dies so does the electromagnetic field that it generates."
And then finally:
Complete rubbish.
to their opposition for saying something that is foreign to their way of thinking?

I say that anyone using their 'senses'/'mind' to try and understand any 'thing-in-itself' is foolish to say that any particular bit of possible data is "'complete' rubbish" and is more of a clone than they are an original thinking entity. After all, all new understandings were once considered unbelievable. I wonder, "where is their sense of adventure in the realm of possibility."

Consider that the four known fundamental interactions are electromagnetism, strong interaction ("strong nuclear force"), weak interaction ("weak nuclear force"), and gravitation, all of which deal with either attraction or repulsion. They all sound like a product of like and dissimilar charges to me.

The newest 'theory' replacing classical electro-magnetism is Quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED is the relativistic quantum field theory of electrodynamics. In essence, it describes how light and matter interact.

In particle physics, all known particles either have a positive, negative or no charge. To date no one knows why or how, this is true. Keep in mind that these charged particles constitutes all the universe, including you and I and our brains, What is this charge? Where does it come from? it is the glue that allows for everything there is, as we know it. It is the one mysterious thing that is responsible for everything.

To date no one knows where the mind came from, how exactly it works. Only that it is manifest in the brain, which uses electricity (Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric 'charge,') as in particles, common to the entire universe? The glue that holds everything together?

Are brains and thus minds an ends to a means of 13 billion years of adaptation, is a super mind on the horizon? Is this the whole point? Is the human mind the expression/manifestation of the fundamental electromagnetic force, (charged particles) the mysterious glue that holds everything together? How many actual things in and of themselves are invisible to human senses?

Is it wise for a human with a limited ability of sensing, to smite any new idea of a human that has a limited ability of sensing the universe, simply based only upon that which came before, that was once just as unbelievable? How do we advance if we condemn, with absolute certainty, possibility that may one day be seen as reality.

It is in fact possible that electromagnetic energy can neither be created nor destroyed and merely changes states. In a universe of relative size and time, how much is too small or too large to be seen/understood by relatively small and yet large humans? Any relative thing is possible in a relative universe. Any relative thing in the universe is a relative of the universe. ;-)

P.S. Being certain is of the past, while being uncertain is of the future. Or rather the past breeds certainty, while the future breeds uncertainty. Is that why some seem to fear the future? As in it they see their death? Especially those that have had a brush with it?
I'm puzzled why you think any of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.
I've left the reader with the ability, to find within what I've said, that which pertains to the subject at hand. I did not mean to exclude anyone. If many find it to be as perplexing, I shall elaborate later, please stand by, I have to deal with dinner.

Edit: Punctuation
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
MGL
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by MGL »


Chaz: Just because you don't have the answer to a question does not give you the right, to propose there is no cause and effect here. The same problem of induction happens to apply to all known physical phenomena. Light from a light bulb remains a puzzle. You always get to a point where explanations end and you can only describe what your model tells you. (2)

Chaz: The word 'gravity' does not tell you why all objects in the Universe are attracted to each other - it is just an irreducible fact of nature. Consciousness is a property of grey matter- this is an irreducible fact, also. (1)


MGL: The evidences just suggests there is a correlation between the brain and consciousness. It may also suggest that the conscious mental behaviour of a person is equivalent to the physical behaviour of the brain ( including the brain waves it emits ).

Chaz: Exactly. And there is no evidence that there is a correlation between consciousness and other forms of matter.(4)


MGL: However there is no evidence that the brain produces consciousness because there no good reason to assume that basic phenomenal properties (such as a sensation of redness) are not fundamental features of the fundamental particles and processes that the behaviour of the brain reduces to.

Chaz: There is a correlation between a light bulb and light when you switch it on. You cannot absolutely prove that the light comes from the light bulb - its just a correlation. You can describe the phenomenon in great detail, as you can with consciousness, but at the end of the day there is only a correlation. (4)
For these sort of questions you have to apply mitigated skepticism for practical reasons to avoid looking stupid.
You are simply asking the wrong question and getting a nihilistic answer.
The question is not is there consciousness in the universe, but why is it that we only seem to witness conscious behaviour in higher animals? (3)
And why is it that that conscious behaviour can be affected by damage to the brain? (6)
Why is it that when the brain stops working, the consciousness stops too? (5)
(1) The only irreducable facts are those that relate to fundamental features of reality which is why gravity can be considered as such.
If something is a property of something else it is reducable to the properties of whatever that something else is reducable to.
The conscious MIND is not irreducible. It can be reduced to a complex spatio-temporal arrangement of more basic sensations. The complex spatio-temporal arrangement of these sensations can be correlated with brain activity, but this brain activity will never be able to explain the qualitative phenomenal nature of the consciousness. This is where the explanation ends.

(2) Consciousness is such a brute fact about brain states that one is obliged to consider two options. Either the complexity of brain states somehow produces consciousness and this is taken to be a brute inexplicable fact or consciousness it is a fundamental feature of the universe that in the brain results in a complex conscious mind. The problem with the first option is that it allows consequences that are not explicable in terms of the usual physical laws of causation that can reduce everthing to fundamental forces of nature that are of course irreducible and inexplicable. It is akin to saying that the words "abracadabra" will produce a rabbit out of a hat and we should look no further for an explanation as to how the rabbit emerged.

(3) We do not witness conscious behaviour in higher animals, we infer it. What we do witness is behaviour. We infer consciousness because similar behaviour of ourselves is accompanied by consciousness.

(4) Please consider the following.

You have 2 rooms.
In one room ( room 1 ) you have a switch.
If you flick the switch you can look in the other room ( room 2) . You notice that this seems to illuminate or darken the other room ( room 2 )
If you interact with other things in room 1 and peak into the other room and see that it remains dark, then you are justified in inferring that only flicking the switch in room 1 produces light in room 2.

However,if you are not able to get into the second room after interfering with other things in room 2 then you are not justified in infering that ONLY flicking the switch produces light in room 2.


(5) Certainly there is no conscious MIND after the brain has ceased working, but that is no reason to suppose that the phenomenal constituents of the conscious mind have ceased to exist anymore than one could suppose that neurons cease to exist because the brain is dead. What you are proposing is something that is irreducable yet destructable which is far more bizarre.

(6) Conscious behaviour is affected by the brain because conscious behaviour IS the behaviour of the brain. A relation of identity is not the same thing as a relation of cause and effect.
MGL
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by MGL »

chaz wyman wrote:
MGL wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ughts.html

Speculation. From the UKs answer to the National Inquirer.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12990211

Interesting but not relevant.


As you objected to the daily mail link here is another irrelevant bbc reference that contradicts your claim.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16811042
chaz wyman
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
MGL wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ughts.html

Speculation. From the UKs answer to the National Inquirer.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12990211

Interesting but not relevant.


As you objected to the daily mail link here is another irrelevant bbc reference that contradicts your claim.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16811042
You already linked that. As I said "interesting but not relevant".
So in the context of "Who wants a Soul", which one of my claims do you think this article contradict exactly?
MGL
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Re: Who wants a soul?

Post by MGL »


Chaz: The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings.

MGL: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ughts.html

Chaz: Speculation. From the UKs answer to the National Inquirer.

MGL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12990211

Chaz: Interesting but not relevant.

MGL: As you objected to the daily mail link here is another irrelevant bbc reference that contradicts your claim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16811042

Chaz: You already linked that. As I said "interesting but not relevant".
So in the context of "Who wants a Soul", which one of my claims do you think this article contradict exactly?
This is actually a different link. You can tell becasue the URL's both end in a different number. To double check you can even click on the links.
The claim it contradicts is the one I quoted you making in my first comment which somehow mysteriously disappeared from your last comment.

In case it is still not obvious which claim I am referring to I will repeat it:

You said: "The radiation from the brain is NOT organised and contains no information about thoughts and feelings."

So in the context of my posting of references that contradict this claim, please explain why they are irrelevant.
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