all muslims are the same

[vegetariantaxidermy]

@forged I explained that in editing, and the foreskin is a natural part of the body. It must serve some purpose. I couldn't inflict pain like that on a baby for an unnecessary surgical procedure. There are risks too. I'm not sure why we are arguing anyway. I'm just saying what I would do. The original argument was over the assertion that people make that only Jews do this, which isn't true.

[Lynn]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9053 discusses marriage ages for girl in Saudi Arabia-not defined; for catholics-12 unless civil law is older; and civil laws in the western world for age of consent over history- e.g. 7 in Delaware a century+ ago.
Civil marriage ages in the USA vary depending on circumstances e.g. in New Hampshire it can be 13.

This information is not intended to show support for early religious or civil marriages but to demonstrate it has happened throughout history, some progress has been made in the western world but there is still a long way to go across the globe.

1. There are parts of the US where even younger marriages can take place than in Israel, but that does not mean it happens on any regular basis. If it did, the laws would change. The laws also provide for statutory rape, which protects those 13 year olds. Without looking at the law, I'm pretty sure it requires parental permission or a prior finding the minor was emancipated. Also, those laws were probably enacted hundreds of years ago, when such behavior was considered to be more normal throuhout the west.

Statutory Rape: A Guide to State Laws and Reporting Requirements - Summary of Current State Laws. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml
It seems a bit of a minefield in the USA. Yes, in some states early marriage is allowed under certain circumstances e.g. with parental consent however underage sex is legal under other circumstances e.g. close-in-age exceptions, marriage status.

The variation in state laws in the USA, whilst not to the same extreme as prepubescent children, does however taint any call for other countries or religions to change their stances on early marriages.

[Kayla]

Name one person who had a botched operation? I have lived my entire life in a nation where most men are circumcized and have never heard of any such bothced operation. Ever. Only on the web sites that makes this an issue. If it is so harmful, then wouldn't people be bitching about how it screwed them up, and we would be hearing a lot about it? It's a non issue.

jesus fucking christ on a stick you are such a total retard

i googled 'botched circumcision'

plenty of stuff from websites that are not specifically anticircumcision websites eg

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/18 ... 6m-payout/

http://www.610kvnu.com/health/305c16852 ... 46e66b0f7e - this one is about babies infected with herpes as a result of circumcision

and there are a lot more

your argument is stupid - you are claiming that something never happens when it is trivial to find examples that it does

now you may argue that benefits outweigh risks - but denying that risks even exist is stupid

[thedoc]

@forged I explained that in editing, and the foreskin is a natural part of the body. It must serve some purpose. I couldn't inflict pain like that on a baby for an unnecessary surgical procedure. There are risks too. I'm not sure why we are arguing anyway. I'm just saying what I would do. The original argument was over the assertion that people make that only Jews do this, which isn't true.

I have given this a little thought over the years and I believe that circumcision makes the penis less sensitive due to the constant exposure and contact with clothing, and intercourse will be prolonged. An uncircuncised male will be more sensitive and possibly orgasim more quickly leaving the female unsatisfied and ready to recieve additional male attention, and a better chance of becoming pregnant. It is possible that circumcision is a cultural thing and has no real medical benefits, and that argument is just a 'Red Herring'.

[ForgedinHell]

@forged I explained that in editing, and the foreskin is a natural part of the body. It must serve some purpose. I couldn't inflict pain like that on a baby for an unnecessary surgical procedure. There are risks too. I'm not sure why we are arguing anyway. I'm just saying what I would do. The original argument was over the assertion that people make that only Jews do this, which isn't true.

Why do you assume it must serve some purpose? We evolved, and our bodies are poorly constructed.

[ForgedinHell]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9053 discusses marriage ages for girl in Saudi Arabia-not defined; for catholics-12 unless civil law is older; and civil laws in the western world for age of consent over history- e.g. 7 in Delaware a century+ ago.
Civil marriage ages in the USA vary depending on circumstances e.g. in New Hampshire it can be 13.

This information is not intended to show support for early religious or civil marriages but to demonstrate it has happened throughout history, some progress has been made in the western world but there is still a long way to go across the globe.

1. There are parts of the US where even younger marriages can take place than in Israel, but that does not mean it happens on any regular basis. If it did, the laws would change. The laws also provide for statutory rape, which protects those 13 year olds. Without looking at the law, I'm pretty sure it requires parental permission or a prior finding the minor was emancipated. Also, those laws were probably enacted hundreds of years ago, when such behavior was considered to be more normal throuhout the west.

Statutory Rape: A Guide to State Laws and Reporting Requirements - Summary of Current State Laws. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml
It seems a bit of a minefield in the USA. Yes, in some states early marriage is allowed under certain circumstances e.g. with parental consent however underage sex is legal under other circumstances e.g. close-in-age exceptions, marriage status.

The variation in state laws in the USA, whilst not to the same extreme as prepubescent children, does however taint any call for other countries or religions to change their stances on early marriages.

Show me any law in America that allows an 8 year old to marry a middle aged man?

[ForgedinHell]

Name one person who had a botched operation? I have lived my entire life in a nation where most men are circumcized and have never heard of any such bothced operation. Ever. Only on the web sites that makes this an issue. If it is so harmful, then wouldn't people be bitching about how it screwed them up, and we would be hearing a lot about it? It's a non issue.

jesus fucking christ on a stick you are such a total retard

i googled 'botched circumcision'

plenty of stuff from websites that are not specifically anticircumcision websites eg

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/18 ... 6m-payout/

http://www.610kvnu.com/health/305c16852 ... 46e66b0f7e - this one is about babies infected with herpes as a result of circumcision

and there are a lot more

your argument is stupid - you are claiming that something never happens when it is trivial to find examples that it does

now you may argue that benefits outweigh risks - but denying that risks even exist is stupid

Yeah, name a person. Those web sites have so much crap on them it isn't funny. The herpes thing doesn't count for anyone who uses modern medicine to do the procedure.

I never denied risks exist, asshole, I stated that they were so minimal that they were not a big deal. More babies die from car crashes every year than circumcisions. The medical profession has examined the issue, and the latest research, shows that some earlier studies casting doubt on circumcision were flawed. If it were so dangerous, doctors would not perform the surgery because they would not want to be sued. What is the percentage of any baby suffering a problem? Millions and millions of babies get circumcized all the time. Are you talking about maybe one in ten million has a problem? Fifty million? It's a non-issue except for idiots with nothing to do with their time. It is a medical issue, and the idiots who post the ban circumcision sites don't rely on medical science but on bullshit. I'll get my medical advise from actual doctors with actual degrees, not from retards who read bullcrap on the net.

[ForgedinHell]

@forged I explained that in editing, and the foreskin is a natural part of the body. It must serve some purpose. I couldn't inflict pain like that on a baby for an unnecessary surgical procedure. There are risks too. I'm not sure why we are arguing anyway. I'm just saying what I would do. The original argument was over the assertion that people make that only Jews do this, which isn't true.

I have given this a little thought over the years and I believe that circumcision makes the penis less sensitive due to the constant exposure and contact with clothing, and intercourse will be prolonged. An uncircuncised male will be more sensitive and possibly orgasim more quickly leaving the female unsatisfied and ready to recieve additional male attention, and a better chance of becoming pregnant. It is possible that circumcision is a cultural thing and has no real medical benefits, and that argument is just a 'Red Herring'.

The other day on another site, a lady wrote that her brother had circumcision done as an adult. He stated he actually experienced greater sexual stimulation, not less. No, the medical benefits of reduced prostate cancer, penile cancer, sexually transmitted disease are quite real. That's why the medical profession performs the operation on millions of boy babies in the US, without any religious issues involved.

[thedoc]

@forged I explained that in editing, and the foreskin is a natural part of the body. It must serve some purpose. I couldn't inflict pain like that on a baby for an unnecessary surgical procedure. There are risks too. I'm not sure why we are arguing anyway. I'm just saying what I would do. The original argument was over the assertion that people make that only Jews do this, which isn't true.

Why do you assume it must serve some purpose? We evolved, and our bodies are poorly constructed.

Physical evolution does not always keep up with cultural and technological evolution. We still have bodies that are addapted to a 'Hunter Gatherer' civilization. The problem of obesity should illustrate that our bodies are still addapted to a more active lifestyle, and not the sedentary one we have now.

[Kayla]

I'll get my medical advise from actual doctors with actual degrees, not from retards who read bullcrap on the net.

here is what many actual doctors think about this

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/ ... R620110923

and from canadian pediatric association

http://www.cps.ca/en/documents/position/circumcision

"The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns. There is therefore no indication that the position taken by the CPS in 1982 should be changed."


so it is clear that the matter is not seen as settled by the medical profession

my argument started as very narrow - that you are overstating the case for circumcision by making absolute statements

but given that you are obviously a batshit insane fuck that is an argument against circumcision

[thedoc]

The other day on another site, a lady wrote that her brother had circumcision done as an adult. He stated he actually experienced greater sexual stimulation, not less. No, the medical benefits of reduced prostate cancer, penile cancer, sexually transmitted disease are quite real. That's why the medical profession performs the operation on millions of boy babies in the US, without any religious issues involved.

Well medical issues aside, I can only suggest that the individual in question had a lifetime with the glans protected by the foreskin and now being still sensitive and exposed might explain the increased stimulation, of course this is only speculation. With the medical issues there has been much learned in the last hundred years about infection that education would reduce or eliminate the risk of many of these problems. Though I am a bit puzzled in one post you state thet the risk of not circumsizing is real, and in another you claim that the risk is minimal and no big deal?

[Lynn]

Statutory Rape: A Guide to State Laws and Reporting Requirements - Summary of Current State Laws. http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml
It seems a bit of a minefield in the USA. Yes, in some states early marriage is allowed under certain circumstances e.g. with parental consent however underage sex is legal under other circumstances e.g. close-in-age exceptions, marriage status.

The variation in state laws in the USA, whilst not to the same extreme as prepubescent children, does however taint any call for other countries or religions to change their stances on early marriages.

Show me any law in America that allows an 8 year old to marry a middle aged man?

You have chosen not to attempt to accept, refute or bemoan the facts provided but rather twist them to your agenda.

[Kayla]

What is the percentage of any baby suffering a problem? Millions and millions of babies get circumcized all the time. Are you talking about maybe one in ten million has a problem? Fifty million?

don't be a retard

according to the american association of family physicians the risk of death is 1 in 500,000 - http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clin ... ision.html

an in an israeli study one in 20 thousand or so circumcisions lead to a 'partial amputation' - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15984378

you are off by orders of magnitude

and this is from sources favorably disposed towards circumcision

the funny thing is that until now i had no opinion on circumcision and gave the matter no thought

but your obnoxious style, sweeping generalizations and general disregard for facts now has me strongly inclined towards that opposed side

keep up the good work

and you are a lawyer?

would hate to have you arguing my case

i can just picture it

forged: officer bloggins, when you arrived at the crime scene what did you observe

bloggins: i observed the accused standing over the body of the victim brandishing a knife covered in blood saying yeah i killed the fucker what are you going to do about

forged: you asshole how do you know it was blood

bloggins: well it was red

forged: you are a cretin, only one in ten million red liquids is blood

bloggins: well he also had a knife

forged: you are saying my client killed the victim with a plastic knife

bloggins: what?

forged: what proportion of knives is non-plastic? one in a millioin? one in ten million?

accused: objection your honor! my lawyer is a fucking imbecile!

[Kayla]

forgy

a further note on my supposed defense of islam

i will use an example to explain

lets say someone shows up on this form and claims that you, forgy, advocate kitten rape

now to the best of my knowledge, you do nothing of the sort, whatever your other shortcomings might be

so i would tell this fool that no, you do not advocate kitten rape

now this person could argue that i am wrong, that you do in fact advocate this - this would be a coherent argument that could be - in principle - easily settled by checking facts

but if this person were to say that i am defending your views in general - they would be speaking nonsense, rather than merely being wrong - because even if - and i am not saying you do - you did advocate kitten rape - disputing this claim would not in any way address anything else that you might advocate

this person would be demonstrating their inability to understand some basic concepts

likewise - even if it is legal to rape children in saudi arabia (which it is not) - disagreeing with this claim does not in any way constitute an endorsement of anything in saudi arabia's laws

incidentally, here is the official saudi view on child marriage

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cf ... 0022364295

( i am assuming that the 'saudi gazette' is an official publication)

you could use the information there to condemn the saudis for all kinds of things - but the claim that child rape is legal there is clearly bogus

and this does not in any way constitute an endorsement of anything else that the saudis might or might not do in reality or just in your imagination so dont be a tool

[ForgedinHell]

The other day on another site, a lady wrote that her brother had circumcision done as an adult. He stated he actually experienced greater sexual stimulation, not less. No, the medical benefits of reduced prostate cancer, penile cancer, sexually transmitted disease are quite real. That's why the medical profession performs the operation on millions of boy babies in the US, without any religious issues involved.

Well medical issues aside, I can only suggest that the individual in question had a lifetime with the glans protected by the foreskin and now being still sensitive and exposed might explain the increased stimulation, of course this is only speculation. With the medical issues there has been much learned in the last hundred years about infection that education would reduce or eliminate the risk of many of these problems. Though I am a bit puzzled in one post you state thet the risk of not circumsizing is real, and in another you claim that the risk is minimal and no big deal?

The risk of circumcision is incredibly small. The reduction in prostrate cancer is real. The same for catching diseases. That makes the act of circumcision a rational choice for people to make, which means it cannot be legitimately described as mutilation or criminal or barbaric. The medical evidence is in, and it is an acceptable practice. The medical community itself had to admit some of its research pointing against circumcision over the last ten to twenty years or so was in fact wrong as it turns out. If the procedure were barbaric, medicine would not support it. Anyone who thinks that they know more than the medical science on this issue is simply an idiot. It's a non-issue. I have lived my entire life in the US where most men are circumcized. In the states I have lived, I have only seen one man not cut. Yet, I have never heard any man complain about being cut, nor have I ever even heard a rumor about some baby being cut having something go wrong. But, from the anti-circumcision cites, one would think that half the babies are having their penises lobbed off entirely.