Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The Big Argument: Does God Exist?

John Ashton (Author), Michael Westacott (Author)


"The Big Argument is a response to the arguments used by atheists to try to defend their position. As I have read much atheist literature, I am very aware of their basic arguments, which boil down to the claim that evolutionism puts God out of a job, the existence of evil, and the putative problems with the Bible. All of these arguments are dealt with, in my opinion, fairly well in this 403 page fine print book. The advantage of this work is, 24 scientists, professors, and professional writers each deal with their area of expertise. As a result, the book is a well written, authoritative well thought out summary of the topic focused on in each chapter. This scholarly work was edited by the highly successful author, John Aston, to be assessable to the educated layman. The 18 Ph.D's included cover, not only the science, but the theological issues as well. This collection of writings will be of interest to, not only scientists, but anyone interested in intelligent design, creationism, evolution, theology, and science in general. One fact that surprised me was that there are only 24 well established dinosaur genera. I had assumed that many more than this existed. Also, the information in the section on the immune system was new to me. No gradual progression of the immune system exists in the natural world (and I checked the references given to support this claim). Several very different types exist, but all are enormously complex".


This may answer some of your questions.

It's funny but the only references I can find to that book are on creationist websites. I wonder why that would be.

[reasonvemotion]

If you read it you may find the answer, but.......

I respect your decision, as they say "no worries".



PS maybe because it is pro not anti.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

If I told you that a purple spotted hyena was orbiting Jupiter you would ask me for evidence wouldn't you?

No, unless I thought you really needed me to believe it.

I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.

So you don't believe ForgedinHell has historical evidence Jesus never existed?

lol Me neither!

Without evidence there is no reason for anyone to believe he existed. Why is it so important for you to believe it anyway?

[mickthinks]

Without evidence there is no reason for anyone to believe he existed.
Wrong on two counts, Veggie!

1. There are as many reasons to believe something without evidence as there are people who are happy to believe it.
2. There is evidence that Jesus existed.

Why is it so important for you to believe it anyway?
My beliefs are so off-topic that you don't even know what they are.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Without evidence there is no reason for anyone to believe he existed.
Wrong on two counts, Veggie!

1. There are as many reasons to believe something without evidence as there are people who are happy to believe it.
2. There is evidence that Jesus existed.

Why is it so important for you to believe it anyway?
My beliefs are so off-topic that you don't even know what they are.

That's where we differ then. You are happy to believe without evidence whereas I can't. If you want to believe a person can walk on water then there's not a lot I can do about that.

[mickthinks]

You are happy to believe without evidence whereas I can't.

Er ... can you provide evidence that you can't believe without evidence, Veggie? Because, quite frankly I don't believe it.

For example, what evidence do you have that you don't believe your grandmother loved you?

[Bernard]

Is that supposed to be evidence??

No.

You see, it makes no difference if there is evidence or not


Thomas

On The Forefathers Of His Doubts


MY GRANDFATHER WHO was a lawyer once said, "Let us observe truth, but only when truth is made manifest unto us."
When Jesus called me I heeded Him, for His command was more potent than my will; yet I kept my counsel.
When He spoke and the others were swayed like branches in the wind, I listened immovable. Yet I loved Him.
Three years ago He left us, a scattered company to sing His name, and to be His witnesses unto the nations.
At that time I was called Thomas the Doubter. The shadow of my grandfather was still upon me, and always I would have truth made manifest.
I would even put my hand in my own wound to feel the blood ere I would believe in my pain.
Now a man who loves with his heart yet holds a doubt in his mind, is but a slave in a galley who sleeps at his oar and dreams of his freedom, till the lash of the master wakes him.
I myself was that slave, and I dreamed of freedom, but the sleep of my grandfather was upon me. My flesh needed the whip of my own day.
Even in the presence of the Nazarene I had closed my eyes to see my hands chained to the oar.
Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.
Doubt is a foundling unhappy and astray, and though his own mother who gave him birth should find him and enfold him, he would withdraw in caution and in fear.
For Doubt will not know truth till his wounds are healed and restored.
I doubted Jesus until He made Himself manifest to me, and thrust my own hand into His very wounds.
Then indeed I believed, and after that I was rid of my yesterday and the yesterdays of my forefathers.
The dead in me buried their dead; and the living shall live for the Anointed King, even for Him who was the Son of Man.
Yesterday they told me that I must go and utter His name among the Persians and the Hindus.
I shall go. And from this day to my last day, at dawn and at eventide, I shall see my Lord rising in majesty and I shall hear Him speak.

[ForgedinHell]

Without evidence there is no reason for anyone to believe he existed.
Wrong on two counts, Veggie!

1. There are as many reasons to believe something without evidence as there are people who are happy to believe it.
2. There is evidence that Jesus existed.

Why is it so important for you to believe it anyway?
My beliefs are so off-topic that you don't even know what they are.

Actually that is not true. It is completely irrational, i.e., bat-crap crazy, to believe something without evidence. The word "rational" has "ratio" as its root. A belief is rational only when there is a lot of evidence to support it. To be rational one must have evidence to support one's beliefs. Otherwise, the belief in an invisible Santa floating around in the sky is just as rational as one that states the earth exists and is round in shape. Those two beliefs are not even close to being equally sane, or rational. To believe without evidence is actually a sure sign that a person is irrational. There is no other rational description for such conduct.

And there is not a single shred of credible evidence that Jesus existed, or that any supernatural god exists. Billions of religious people have been trying to come up with something, anything. They have nothing. You have nothing. Oh, I do apologize, religious people have been pointing out for a long time how Jesus appears on toast, but that is not credible evidence. For one thing, how do you know what he actually looks like?

[ForgedinHell]

What am I supposed to 'prove'?

Anything and everything that you claim that you believe based on the evidence alone.

Forgy claims he has enough evidence to prove that Jesus never existed. If you believe him, you could start by proving that.

Had Jesus come to deliver a message, then he would have written something down. He didn't. Are we supposed to believe that he just couldn't think of everything? He was too busy attending parties? Cicero lived before this alleged Jesus, and he left behind volumes of writings. Now, just maybe, the reason why he never wrote anything was because he never existed. That would also explain why absolutely nothing was written about him while he allegedly lived.

Christianity is a mystery cult religion. And as a mystery-cult religion, the claim by Paul was merely that Jesus existed in the supernatural realm. That is why Paul never mentions a virgin birth, Mary, Joseph, nothing about his life on earth. Paul does not quote from the alleged Sermon on the Mount. Why? Because for Paul, an historical Jesus did not exist. He believed in a Jesus, who, like Mythra, acted in the supernatural realm. That's the real heart of Christianity: it's a mystery cult religion, and no historical Jesus existed.

[ForgedinHell]

The Big Argument: Does God Exist?

John Ashton (Author), Michael Westacott (Author)


"The Big Argument is a response to the arguments used by atheists to try to defend their position. As I have read much atheist literature, I am very aware of their basic arguments, which boil down to the claim that evolutionism puts God out of a job, the existence of evil, and the putative problems with the Bible. All of these arguments are dealt with, in my opinion, fairly well in this 403 page fine print book. The advantage of this work is, 24 scientists, professors, and professional writers each deal with their area of expertise. As a result, the book is a well written, authoritative well thought out summary of the topic focused on in each chapter. This scholarly work was edited by the highly successful author, John Aston, to be assessable to the educated layman. The 18 Ph.D's included cover, not only the science, but the theological issues as well. This collection of writings will be of interest to, not only scientists, but anyone interested in intelligent design, creationism, evolution, theology, and science in general. One fact that surprised me was that there are only 24 well established dinosaur genera. I had assumed that many more than this existed. Also, the information in the section on the immune system was new to me. No gradual progression of the immune system exists in the natural world (and I checked the references given to support this claim). Several very different types exist, but all are enormously complex".


This may answer some of your questions.

That isn't a book of science, but pseudoscience. What you stated on the immune system is pure rubbish.

[ForgedinHell]

If I told you that a purple spotted hyena was orbiting Jupiter you would ask me for evidence wouldn't you?

No, unless I thought you really needed me to believe it.

I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.

So you don't believe ForgedinHell has historical evidence Jesus never existed?

lol Me neither!

You've never rebutted anything I have stated on the topic. But, here is another fact for you to consider. We know that when celebrities exist, people love to visit the places they lived, worked at, and died at, etc. Now, we are to believe, according to the Bible, that Jesus was insanely popular, and then, he gets crucified to save us. Okay, then if that were true, what would we expect to see in the historical record? Why, we would expect to see a lot of people who immediately started vsiting the places where Jesus lived, and died. You would not be able to keep the gawkers away. Yet, pilgrimages to the alleged death scene did not take place until more than 100 years later. That's exactly what we would expect if Jesus was an ahistorical person.

[reasonvemotion]

That isn't a book of science, but pseudoscience

OK. So you have read it, to presume that.

[ForgedinHell]

That isn't a book of science, but pseudoscience

OK. So you have read it, to presume that.

I saw your remarks about the book. The comment on immunity would be the pseudoscience garbage that is currently labeled as "irreducible complexity," and it has been refuted repeatedly. It is the same garbage that Paley tossed about, and it is every bit as erroneous. I know for a fact that there is nothing, and I mean absolutely zero, in science that points towards any supernatural deity of any kind, even a prime mover. Go ahead and quote some of this science, and I'm willing to bet it gets thrashed by the scientifically educated atheists who hang out here.

[reasonvemotion]

So you have read it? No.

So you cannot comment.


Is this another case of "Kant".

[vegetariantaxidermy]

So you have read it? No.

So you cannot comment.


Is this another case of "Kant".

There is no point in reading a book that is promoted on creationist websites. That raises immediate alarm bells. Why would a scientifically literate person waste their time with such rubbish? You mentioned two lies from the book just in the small sample you quoted from it.