Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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mickthinks
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by mickthinks »

ForgedinHell wrote:
mickthinks wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:The evidence is exactly what we would expect if no historical Jesus existed.
No it isn"t, Forgy.
The evidence is exactly what we would expect if no Jesus actually existed.
No it isn't. Forgy.

You just keep repeating your beliefs as if that were enough to show how wise you are.

Now, when you take away the fiction, what is left? Nothing.

When you take away everything you believe is fiction, there may be nothing left. But where's your evidence that everything is fiction?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

[/quote]
No it isn't. Forgy.

You just keep repeating your beliefs as if that were enough to show how wise you are.

Now, when you take away the fiction, what is left? Nothing.

When you take away everything you believe is fiction, there may be nothing left. But where's your evidence that everything is fiction?[/quote]

You are the one with a belief. Belief with no evidence. Take that away and you have nothing.
mickthinks
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by mickthinks »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You are the one with a belief. Belief with no evidence. Take that away and you have nothing.
That's your (and Forgy's) belief. But Forgy claims he can prove it. Can you?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

mickthinks wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You are the one with a belief. Belief with no evidence. Take that away and you have nothing.
That's your (and Forgy's) belief. But Forgy claims he can prove it. Can you?
You already know you have no evidence, only faith. What am I supposed to 'prove'?
mickthinks
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by mickthinks »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:What am I supposed to 'prove'?
Anything and everything that you claim that you believe based on the evidence alone.

Forgy claims he has enough evidence to prove that Jesus never existed. If you believe him, you could start by proving that.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

mickthinks wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:What am I supposed to 'prove'?
Anything and everything that you claim that you believe based on the evidence alone.

Forgy claims he has enough evidence to prove that Jesus never existed. If you believe him, you could start by proving that.
I'm basing what I say on a lack of evidence on your part. I have no reason to think he was a real, historical figure. The onus is on you to convince me. I don't go around believing things based on 'faith'. That would make me an idiot.
mickthinks
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by mickthinks »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The onus is on you to convince me.
Why? I am happy for you to continue to believe whatever.


I don't go around believing things based on 'faith'.
Then your life is a very strange, sad and empty one! But each to his own ...
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

mickthinks wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:The onus is on you to convince me.
Why? I am happy for you to continue to believe whatever.


I don't go around believing things based on 'faith'.
Then your life is a very strange, sad and empty one! But each to his own ...
Not at all. Your belief is based on empty faith. I don't see the point. If I told you that a purple spotted hyena was orbiting Jupiter you would ask me for evidence wouldn't you? If you had any sense you would.
reasonvemotion
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by reasonvemotion »

The Big Argument: Does God Exist?

John Ashton (Author), Michael Westacott (Author)


"The Big Argument is a response to the arguments used by atheists to try to defend their position. As I have read much atheist literature, I am very aware of their basic arguments, which boil down to the claim that evolutionism puts God out of a job, the existence of evil, and the putative problems with the Bible. All of these arguments are dealt with, in my opinion, fairly well in this 403 page fine print book. The advantage of this work is, 24 scientists, professors, and professional writers each deal with their area of expertise. As a result, the book is a well written, authoritative well thought out summary of the topic focused on in each chapter. This scholarly work was edited by the highly successful author, John Aston, to be assessable to the educated layman. The 18 Ph.D's included cover, not only the science, but the theological issues as well. This collection of writings will be of interest to, not only scientists, but anyone interested in intelligent design, creationism, evolution, theology, and science in general. One fact that surprised me was that there are only 24 well established dinosaur genera. I had assumed that many more than this existed. Also, the information in the section on the immune system was new to me. No gradual progression of the immune system exists in the natural world (and I checked the references given to support this claim). Several very different types exist, but all are enormously complex".


This may answer some of your questions.
Last edited by reasonvemotion on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bernard
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by Bernard »

From Gibran's book on Jesus, including Gibran's picture of him.
http://leb.net/mira/works/jesus/jesus.html


Image


A Philosopher

On Wonder And Beauty


WHEN HE WAS with us He gazed at us and at our world with eyes of wonder, for His eyes were not veiled with the veil of years, and all that He saw was clear in the light of His youth.
Though He knew the depth of beauty, He was for ever surprised by its peace and its majesty; and He stood before the earth as the first man had stood before the first day.
We whose senses have been dulled, we gaze in full daylight and yet we do not see. We would cup our ears, but we do not hear; and stretch forth our hands, but we do not touch. And though all the incense of Arabia is burned, we go our way and do not smell.
We see not the ploughman returning from his field at eventide; nor hear the shepherd's flute when he leads his flock to the fold, nor do we stretch our arms to touch the sunset; and our nostrils hunger no longer for the roses of Sharon.
Nay, we honor no kings without kingdoms; nor hear the sound of harps save when the strings are plucked by hands; nor do we see a child playing in our olive grove as if he were a young olive tree. And all words must needs rise from lips of flesh, or else we deem each other dumb and deaf.
In truth we gaze but do not see, and hearken but do not hear; we eat and drink but do not taste. And there lies the difference between Jesus of Nazareth and ourselves.
His senses were all continually made new, and the world to Him was always a new world.
To Him the lisping of a babe was not less than the cry of all mankind, while to us it is only lisping.
To Him the root of a buttercup was a longing towards God, while to us it is naught but a root.


Mary Magdalen, Thirty Years Later

On The Resurrection Of The Soul


ONCE AGAIN I say that with death Jesus conquered death, and rose from the grave a spirit and a power. And He walked in our solitude and visited the gardens of our passion.
He lies not there in that cleft rock behind the stone.
We who love Him beheld Him with these our eyes which He made to see; and we touched Him with these our hands which He taught to reach forth.
I know you who believe not in Him. I was one of you, and you are many; but your number shall be diminished.
Must your break your harp and your lyre to find the music therein?
Or must you fell a tree ere you can believe it bears fruit?
You hate Jesus because someone from the North Country said He was the Son of God. But you hate one another because each of you deems himself too great to be the brother of the next man.
You hate Him because someone said He was born of a virgin, and not of man's seed.
But you know not the mothers who go to the tomb in virginity, nor the men who go down to the grave choked with their own thirst.
You know not that the earth was given in marriage to the sun, and that earth it is who sends us forth to the mountain and the desert.
There is a gulf that yawns between those who love Him and those who hate Him, between those who believe and those who do not believe.
But when the years have bridged that gulf you shall know that He who lived in us is deathless, that He was the Son of God even as we are the children of God; that He was born of a virgin even as we are born of the husbandless earth.
It is passing strange that the earth gives not to the unbelievers the roots that would suck at her breast, nor the wings wherewith to fly high and drink, and be filled with the dews of her space.
But I know what I know, and it is enough.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

reasonvemotion wrote:The Big Argument: Does God Exist?

John Ashton (Author), Michael Westacott (Author)


The Big Argument is a response to the arguments used by atheists to try to defend their position. As I have read much atheist literature, I am very aware of their basic arguments, which boil down to the claim that evolutionism puts God out of a job, the existence of evil, and the putative problems with the Bible. All of these arguments are dealt with, in my opinion, fairly well in this 403 page fine print book. The advantage of this work is, 24 scientists, professors, and professional writers each deal with their area of expertise. As a result, the book is a well written, authoritative well thought out summary of the topic focused on in each chapter. This scholarly work was edited by the highly successful author, John Aston, to be assessable to the educated layman. The 18 Ph.D's included cover, not only the science, but the theological issues as well. This collection of writings will be of interest to, not only scientists, but anyone interested in intelligent design, creationism, evolution, theology, and science in general. One fact that surprised me was that there are only 24 well established dinosaur genera. I had assumed that many more than this existed. Also, the information in the section on the immune system was new to me. No gradual progression of the immune system exists in the natural world (and I checked the references given to support this claim). Several very different types exist, but all are enormously complex.


This may answer some of your questions.
I don't need to defend my position. I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Bernard wrote:From Gibran's book on Jesus, including Gibran's picture of him.
http://leb.net/mira/works/jesus/jesus.html


Image


A Philosopher

On Wonder And Beauty


WHEN HE WAS with us He gazed at us and at our world with eyes of wonder, for His eyes were not veiled with the veil of years, and all that He saw was clear in the light of His youth.
Though He knew the depth of beauty, He was for ever surprised by its peace and its majesty; and He stood before the earth as the first man had stood before the first day.
We whose senses have been dulled, we gaze in full daylight and yet we do not see. We would cup our ears, but we do not hear; and stretch forth our hands, but we do not touch. And though all the incense of Arabia is burned, we go our way and do not smell.
We see not the ploughman returning from his field at eventide; nor hear the shepherd's flute when he leads his flock to the fold, nor do we stretch our arms to touch the sunset; and our nostrils hunger no longer for the roses of Sharon.
Nay, we honor no kings without kingdoms; nor hear the sound of harps save when the strings are plucked by hands; nor do we see a child playing in our olive grove as if he were a young olive tree. And all words must needs rise from lips of flesh, or else we deem each other dumb and deaf.
In truth we gaze but do not see, and hearken but do not hear; we eat and drink but do not taste. And there lies the difference between Jesus of Nazareth and ourselves.
His senses were all continually made new, and the world to Him was always a new world.
To Him the lisping of a babe was not less than the cry of all mankind, while to us it is only lisping.
To Him the root of a buttercup was a longing towards God, while to us it is naught but a root.


Mary Magdalen, Thirty Years Later

On The Resurrection Of The Soul


ONCE AGAIN I say that with death Jesus conquered death, and rose from the grave a spirit and a power. And He walked in our solitude and visited the gardens of our passion.
He lies not there in that cleft rock behind the stone.
We who love Him beheld Him with these our eyes which He made to see; and we touched Him with these our hands which He taught to reach forth.
I know you who believe not in Him. I was one of you, and you are many; but your number shall be diminished.
Must your break your harp and your lyre to find the music therein?
Or must you fell a tree ere you can believe it bears fruit?
You hate Jesus because someone from the North Country said He was the Son of God. But you hate one another because each of you deems himself too great to be the brother of the next man.
You hate Him because someone said He was born of a virgin, and not of man's seed.
But you know not the mothers who go to the tomb in virginity, nor the men who go down to the grave choked with their own thirst.
You know not that the earth was given in marriage to the sun, and that earth it is who sends us forth to the mountain and the desert.
There is a gulf that yawns between those who love Him and those who hate Him, between those who believe and those who do not believe.
But when the years have bridged that gulf you shall know that He who lived in us is deathless, that He was the Son of God even as we are the children of God; that He was born of a virgin even as we are born of the husbandless earth.
It is passing strange that the earth gives not to the unbelievers the roots that would suck at her breast, nor the wings wherewith to fly high and drink, and be filled with the dews of her space.
But I know what I know, and it is enough.
Is that supposed to be evidence??
reasonvemotion
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by reasonvemotion »

I don't need to defend my position. I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.

I am not attacking you, thought you may be interested in reading some scientific facts. You know, "evidence".


I see you have made your decision, but I would be interested to know how and why you came to this conclusion and your "evidence" to back it up.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:The Big Argument: Does God Exist?

John Ashton (Author), Michael Westacott (Author)


The Big Argument is a response to the arguments used by atheists to try to defend their position. As I have read much atheist literature, I am very aware of their basic arguments, which boil down to the claim that evolutionism puts God out of a job, the existence of evil, and the putative problems with the Bible. All of these arguments are dealt with, in my opinion, fairly well in this 403 page fine print book. The advantage of this work is, 24 scientists, professors, and professional writers each deal with their area of expertise. As a result, the book is a well written, authoritative well thought out summary of the topic focused on in each chapter. This scholarly work was edited by the highly successful author, John Aston, to be assessable to the educated layman. The 18 Ph.D's included cover, not only the science, but the theological issues as well. This collection of writings will be of interest to, not only scientists, but anyone interested in intelligent design, creationism, evolution, theology, and science in general. One fact that surprised me was that there are only 24 well established dinosaur genera. I had assumed that many more than this existed. Also, the information in the section on the immune system was new to me. No gradual progression of the immune system exists in the natural world (and I checked the references given to support this claim). Several very different types exist, but all are enormously complex.


This may answer some of your questions.
I don't need to defend my position. I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.
'24 dinosaur genera'? There are over a thousand so far. Now why would the book lie about something like that?
mickthinks
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Re: Christianity and its non-historical Jesus

Post by mickthinks »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:If I told you that a purple spotted hyena was orbiting Jupiter you would ask me for evidence wouldn't you?
No, unless I thought you really needed me to believe it.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't believe anything without evidence. End of story.
So you don't believe ForgedinHell has historical evidence Jesus never existed?

lol Me neither! :D
Last edited by mickthinks on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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