I got pregnant from Rape

[reasonvemotion]

"Todd Akin doesn't know the first thing about what it's like to live with sexual assault. At 19, I found out
By Renee DeVest

At 19 years old, I became an unwilling expert on the topic of rape. I learned about rape’s savagery and its psychological trauma.

Lately, we’ve been hearing from men who don’t know much about the subject at all. On Monday, Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., created a stir when he said, “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” But his casual, off-the-cuff ignorance is just the latest in a long line of insults. In March, Kansas Rep. Pete DeGraf said, “Women should plan ahead for rape the way he keeps a spare tire.” A few weeks after that Indiana state Rep. Eric Turner said, “Some women might fake being raped in order to get free abortions.” I can’t stand by and watch these men who have no personal experience with sexual assault pretend to know so much about it.

I do know about rape. I received an education of the highest degree, and now it’s my turn to teach.............."

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/22/i_got_p ... from_rape/

[The Voice of Time]

My immediate reaction is that her explanation proves my trying to explain that "innocent" people aren't capable of coping with life's diversity.

My second reaction is that the US have some pretty weird politicians, though of course with the whole world laughing at Sarah Palin (anyone seen Ironsky? I have) that's not really big news.

My third reaction is wonder at putting together of pieces as I've never really understood the process which leads to a person being so full of negative emotions after a rape (of course I understand the possibility, but never the full "process" as it's an alien experience for me).

[Bernard]

One thing that explains the allowance into the ruling class of ignorant twats (beside healthy bank accounts) is their willingness to dumb down crime: Us prisons are a huge financial burden, and one solution in these poor minds is having a blind eye toward crime in the growing povertyclass, with the hopeful end it will murder itself out of existence. Within their own ranks, application of criminal law becomes highly manipulative and exaggerated, this becomes enshrined activity that can then be projected toward perceived enemies of state, such as J Assange.

[Impenitent]

don't worry- with the new "arab spring" bringing the joys of sharia law home to roost under the guise of the muslim "brotherhood," we'll soon see rape victims cared for in the most compassionate ways...

-Imp

[marjoramblues]

My immediate reaction is that her explanation proves my trying to explain that "innocent" people aren't capable of coping with life's diversity.

My second reaction is that the US have some pretty weird politicians, though of course with the whole world laughing at Sarah Palin (anyone seen Ironsky? I have) that's not really big news.

My third reaction is wonder at putting together of pieces as I've never really understood the process which leads to a person being so full of negative emotions after a rape (of course I understand the possibility, but never the full "process" as it's an alien experience for me).

It was a vivid description of one woman's experience of rape and the consequences of that rape on her life. Also her sense of powerlessness against 'ignorant' people in positions of government. I'm not sure that such individual narratives can make/have made a difference, especially when they have the feel of fiction - 'story-telling'.

However, the topic of 'rape' seems to be getting a lot of attention; interesting to read of definitions and high profile male attitudes. See 'Everyone's talking about rape' - Hadley Freeman in today's Guardian 'Comment is Free': http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... about-rape

Voice - please clarify how this proves that 'innocent people aren't capable of coping with life's diversity'.

Even people that 'know the score' - perhaps even have a psychology degree - may not be able to cope with life's diversity or adversities.

I don't think that you have to 'feel' the process of e.g. rape,grief, or depression to be able to recognise that people will react in different ways to such events - and perhaps in ways that surprise them, given their knowledge and life experience.

Just as you don't have to be a serial murderer to write a detective novel...or an alien to write sci-fi.
A bit of imagination - empathy - call it what you will.

There is a different story of rape here:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchesterevening ... et?rss=yes

A teenage boy - raped 2nd June. The police apparently waiting for forensic results before issuing public appeal - 21st August.

Now, tell me - after reading this - you don't have the imagination to 'feel' and understand the effects of trauma...

[marjoramblues]

"Todd Akin doesn't know the first thing about what it's like to live with sexual assault. At 19, I found out
By Renee DeVest

At 19 years old, I became an unwilling expert on the topic of rape. I learned about rape’s savagery and its psychological trauma.

Lately, we’ve been hearing from men who don’t know much about the subject at all. On Monday, Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., created a stir when he said, “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” But his casual, off-the-cuff ignorance is just the latest in a long line of insults. In March, Kansas Rep. Pete DeGraf said, “Women should plan ahead for rape the way he keeps a spare tire.” A few weeks after that Indiana state Rep. Eric Turner said, “Some women might fake being raped in order to get free abortions.” I can’t stand by and watch these men who have no personal experience with sexual assault pretend to know so much about it.

I do know about rape. I received an education of the highest degree, and now it’s my turn to teach.............."

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/22/i_got_p ... from_rape/

Thanks for this, reasonvemotion - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, and intentions behind the thread - given its submission under 'Applied Ethics'.

[Wootah]

From my understanding the man apologised for his statements and thinks much like we do. I wonder if it is not a case of you being played for political points by others.

[The Voice of Time]

Voice - please clarify how this proves that 'innocent people aren't capable of coping with life's diversity'.

Sorry. My reply was lost, had written rather extensively. Anyways, first I must apologize since the proper term of mine should be "evidence" and not "proof", second I'll tackle the problem again (since I lost my reply due to loss of internet-connection): she said herself she was innocent, she said herself she was Catholic. Now Catholicism is widely known for its educational and ethical propagation of innocence. Having lead to a large amount of cases all over the world where people, because of their incapacity to deal with negativity towards heavily value-laden religious symbols, like family, friends, the church, the priest, the community etc. they have ended up not being able to cope when something goes wrong. The historically most significant example I know is the more than 100 suicides of alter-boys committed in Belgium due to sexual abuse by the Catholic clergy. It is this narrowing and sealing off of a persons worldview that disables them from ever learning and experiencing how to tackle breaches of reality and sufferings of different kind. Though I have no "proof" that she is one of those, as then I would have to interrogate her myself, I find the suggestive evidence quite on my side, though no settling of affairs on the matter can be made from the article alone.

There is a different story of rape here:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchesterevening ... et?rss=yes

A teenage boy - raped 2nd June. The police apparently waiting for forensic results before issuing public appeal - 21st August.

Now, tell me - after reading this - you don't have the imagination to 'feel' and understand the effects of trauma...

No, I don't. And the next step of understanding is?

[marjoramblues]

Voice - thanks for taking the time and effort to reply twice; the first extensive reply you lost - so, tell me, what was your first immediate reaction to that loss ? Something along the lines of 'Damn', 'Shit' or 'Fuckety-fuck, fuck, bugger' - an expression of irritation - a negative emotion ? And then you might think - oh well, then it might be better second time around - I've been given another chance, no great loss.

Whatever it was, you were 'capable of coping' with such a minor 'diversity' ( do you mean 'adversity' ?) - you had the experience and wisdom to stop the process of negative thinking and not give yourself a hard time over it.

Now, let us take another scenario - one in which you are 'innocent' - in the sense of 'without experience' and have never even been able to imagine - for example, a terrifying abduction, brutal rape and continual torture. It is clear to me, even though I have never experienced such, that 'negative emotions' would arise throughout the whole process,and beyond. Even with all the knowledge in the world, noboby knows how they and their bodies will react until it happens...

The capacity to cope with this - will depend on a variety of factors, as will the lack of capacity. Having a religious belief does not mean that a person is 'innocent' or has a narrow word view unable to cope with life's adversities - it has been shown to get people through major traumas such as being a prisoner of war. But we could consider opposite 'evidence' until the cows come home, and end up in a stale-mate.

You are correct, this one article proves nothing. You seem to have made a hasty generalisation about 'innocent people' which is not convincing. I see that your thoughts about 'innocence' have been discussed in another thread - perhaps time to draw them together into a more coherent argument, a thread of your own ?

You say you don't have the capacity - or power of imagination - to 'feel' and understand the effects of trauma.
And yet, you can imagine various escape bids by Julian Assange - when I say 'feel' I mean to have an appreciation of. Are you saying you can't appreciate how it would feel for Assange to be waterboarded in a detention camp? This type of 'feeling' or empathy does not involve having a similar physical sensation.

A lack of empathy is unusual but certainly possible. If missing, then knowledge and reason might result in 'understanding' of a kind. Where's a holodeck when you need one ?

It is both a lack of knowledge and empathy which the author of the article is railing against; and the powerful positions of those 'ignorant' means that ethical decisions and laws are made or overturned, apparently without any basis on fact or good evidence. The narrow views of the non-innocent politicians... and the consequences...Imagine that !

[The Voice of Time]

Religious people are quite aware with war, but war is not a religious heavy symbol in Catholicism (these days at least), and so falls outside the box of my point. Also, it's the younger you are the greater is the chance you are caught in innocence, the greater the age the greater the chance that on the way you've picked up enough to tackle specific problems. War is really not a good example because the dynamics of the psyche of somebody religious, at least in the typical way, is made to understand suffering of this kind. It's two very different categories. It's hard to explain, but very clear in my mind. If you've been taught to love your parents, for instance, and seek aid in prayers, then if somebody steals your mother away from you, you can survive on the prayers. If your MOTHER however were to commit some great negative act against you, like rape, certain forms of extra-abnormal violence (hitting your kid doesn't automatically need to be uncopable, though often is uncopable or leads to other problems), there's little or no aid to find in prayer, because it's hard to perpetuate the principle of loving your parents like you can do with their mere absence, a clash between philosophy (your religious ethics) and the causes of nature (pain, suffering etc.).

My evidence just increases the likelihood, it isn't absolute evidence, but very much relevant, very suggestive.

{and no, won't make a thread about it because it's not a subject I like... that much, I've had bad experiences with the disturbing world of innocent folk too much}

[reasonvemotion]

what stood out in this article for me were the words..................I am Catholic.

That is where her struggle was. Catholic teachings on abortion.

[The Voice of Time]

what stood out in this article for me were the words..................I am Catholic.

That is where her struggle was. Catholic teachings on abortion.

mmm... at least it's one major hindrance. What child wants to grow up knowing their mother suffered so much in making them?

[Lynn]

what stood out in this article for me were the words..................I am Catholic.

That is where her struggle was. Catholic teachings on abortion.

I don't view her struggle as being Catholic teachings on abortion.

Yes, it was her Catholic view of the world that was challenged - she did nothing wrong but had been raped and left pregnant as a result. She was left "mentally, emotionally and spiritually broken", "overwhelmed by fear, guilt and shame" but took the decision to terminate the pregnancy to try to erase the experience from her memory and save her sanity. These factors obviously won over any possible struggle she may have had with regard to Catholic teachings on abortion.

Do you think that any woman would feel any different or not struggle with such a decision in these circumstances, irrespective of her religion?

["Quotes" taken from original article posted http://www.salon.com/2012/08/22/i_got_p ... from_rape/ ]

[Lynn]

what stood out in this article for me were the words..................I am Catholic.

That is where her struggle was. Catholic teachings on abortion.

mmm... at least it's one major hindrance. What child wants to grow up knowing their mother suffered so much in making them?

One child's view of being an unplanned pregnancy that resulted from coercive sex: I wish my mother had aborted me
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... aborted-me

[The Voice of Time]

Do you think that any woman would feel any different or not struggle with such a decision in these circumstances, irrespective of her religion?

I don't think so. A little insecurity of course, but a "pill of regret" or an early abortion is an easy option for many women, and I largely think that for most people after being raped with pregnancy ensuing, at least if you are living an educated life with opportunities, do so without any problem at all, maybe not even considering the thought of keeping the kid (usually because you have plans for your life or other things which clearly coincides with such a choice). Struggle is to exaggerate, at least for any women of the category I mentioned living in developed countries, like the Nordic countries, UK, Western Europe and US (though community matters, and in the US especially there are many segregated philosophies of such matters and things, with folk like the Mormons [some of them] and the Amish and so forth).