A Case for Dualism - New? Or Not?

[thalarch]

I don't know of any reported out-of-body experience that couldn't have been a hallucination.

I disagree, especially based on accounts from those who experience lucid dreaming and such events that do result in a documented out of body experience. Dualism is alive and real.

But how would lucid dreams dispel the possibility of OBEs being hallucinations? I've risen from my sleeping body in some of those and sailed up into the moonlit sky to look down at the local landscape, which was amazingly detailed. But there were differences which clearly indicated it wasn't the world of waking life (like extra or different houses in the neighborhood). Either it was still just an unusual virtual reality where I could control what happened or I took a trip into a parallel universe. The former is far more parsimonious and less outlandish an explanation to assume as a start for further research.

[Arising_uk]

I disagree, especially based on accounts from those who experience lucid dreaming and such events that do result in a documented out of body experience. Dualism is alive and real.

Why would lucid dreaming confirm dualism, in the sense of mind being a separate substance than body? I'd have thought it refuted it as they're lucid 'dreamers'.

[inquirer]

Is anyone aware (no pun intended) of Dr. Sam Parnia's research?

Have there been any results from his "AWARE" study yet?

[MindAndPhilosophy]

Do you know the Pam Reynolds case? She died 2 years ago, and she became famous for her out-of-body experience (OBE) during the brain surgery. According to the doctors, there was no brain-wave activity during the operation; however, after the surgery she told about her OOB experience. She said she had left her body and started to float around in the operating room. She was able to precisely describe what happened during the operation - what the nurse said, and what's even more interesting she could recall the shape of the drill used by the doctor to open the skull. I believe that such an experience can't be scientifically explained; also it's impossible to call it a hallucination since her experience actually reflected the reality (despite the fact her eyes remained close). What do you think about it?

You're welcome to read more about substance dualism, physicalism, and near-death experiences on the blog:
http://www.mindandphilosophy.blogspot.com/

[Satyr]

Dualism?

A product of biological functions.
A simpler, the simplest, evolution in awareness.

It is founded on an off/on switch.
On means flow; Off mean no-flow.
What is flowing is biochemical energy through the nervous system.
The evolved and already established neural networks culminate in a controlling nexus of neural clusters we call the BRAIN.

Wen biochemical energy flows through a neural cluster this is an ON; when it does not it is an OFF.

From this simple survival mechanism the organism establishes edible from non-edible, then friend from foe.
This facilitates the organism's survival, as the brain evolves to do just that.
Later, as the brain becomes more complex, we get the flee or fight, dualism...and form that the evil/good and the entirety of dualistic symbols, finally resulting in the ultimate abstraction of 1/0.

The mathematical symbols of 1/0 represent the ultimate abstraction of dualism, based on the simple on/off neuron-biological mechanisms.

So, God and the Devil are no more than a metaphor of this basic, primal, neurological function.

[Arising_uk]

Dualism?

A product of biological functions.
A simpler, the simplest, evolution in awareness.

It is founded on an off/on switch.
On means flow; Off mean no-flow.
What is flowing is biochemical energy through the nervous system.
The evolved and already established neural networks culminate in a controlling nexus of neural clusters we call the BRAIN.

Wen biochemical energy flows through a neural cluster this is an ON; when it does not it is an OFF.

From this simple survival mechanism the organism establishes edible from non-edible, then friend from foe.
This facilitates the organism's survival, as the brain evolves to do just that.
Later, as the brain becomes more complex, we get the flee or fight, dualism...and form that the evil/good and the entirety of dualistic symbols, finally resulting in the ultimate abstraction of 1/0.

The mathematical symbols of 1/0 represent the ultimate abstraction of dualism, based on the simple on/off neuron-biological mechanisms.

So, God and the Devil are no more than a metaphor of this basic, primal, neurological function.

Bit reductionist don't you think?

For a start there is no 'off' 'no flow' in the human biological system. If the computational neural nets are of any use in such issues then its that there is always a 'flow' of some type. Not that I disagree that there is a threshold activation but to reduce it to a binary switch is to simple. These 'switches' appear to be able to adjust according to required output which is odd in the least.

That '0' is only a recent occurrence and needs not such a reductionist explanation other than some bright spark thought to name the empty space in the abacus when symbols other than beads were thought up.

You make a good metaphysician but what use you, other than for your own personal politics, in Philosophy?

[Satyr]

Wow...still simple after all these years.

On/Off explained for the simpleton:

On...flow.
Off...no flow.

Since all is active which exists the concept relies on a divergence of degree not of absolutes, given that there ARE no fuckin' absolutes outside the human mind that manufactures them.

Ergo, on represents a faster, a faster, rate of fluidity and the off a slower rate of fluidity.
Since the energy pulse moving along the neural network is energy and the neural network is matter - the difference between matter and energy being that of rate of flow - an energy pulse would move faster in relation to the neuron which would be a much slower flow.

Get it yet?
If you cannot perceive a connection between the metaphysical and the physical then the problem is with you.
The two must be harmonious otherwise you get a moron who can be real critical and judgmental and not easily fooled then being taken by a simple child's story in regards to which he suspends judgment and criticism because it's a sin or because it feels right or because mommy said so.

Time for one-thousand obtuse questions now.

[Arising_uk]

...

On...flow.
Off...no flow. ...

There is no 'no flow' in the biological system. There is always an activation state.

Since all is active which exists the concept relies on a divergence of degree not of absolutes, given that there ARE no fuckin' absolutes outside the human mind that manufactures them.

We agree about the absolutes but your 'on' 'off' is exactly what you decry.

Ergo, on represents a faster, a faster, rate of fluidity and the off a slower rate of fluidity.
Since the energy pulse moving along the neural network is energy and the neural network is matter - the difference between matter and energy being that of rate of flow - an energy pulse would move faster in relation to the neuron which would be a much slower flow.

Get it yet?

I get that you are making a metaphysic upon ideas from science, mainly to support your politics, and as such ask you to define what "energy", "fluidity", "matter", "pulse", "flow", and "neural network" mean in this context?

If you cannot perceive a connection between the metaphysical and the physical then the problem is with you.

Think not. That you make such connections just means to me that you have a political agenda.

The two must be harmonious otherwise you get a moron who can be real critical and judgmental and not easily fooled then being taken by a simple child's story in regards to which he suspends judgment and criticism because it's a sin or because it feels right or because mommy said so.

There is no "must" about such stuff, as Philosophy has pretty much given up such nonsense as the Newtonians kicked our arses about such matters. That you wish it to be so is either because you still wish nannys comfort or that you have a political agenda.

Time for one-thousand obtuse questions now.

I'll leave that for others to decide.

[Satyr]

There is no 'no flow' in the biological system. There is always an activation state.

No, twat, it means there is a divergence in degree of fluidity which manifests in a on/off flow through neural networks.

A river flowing does a hillside, twat, is flowing upon a fluid hill...yet the difference in fluidity establishes a divergence in quality.

I get that you are making a metaphysic upon ideas from science, mainly to support your politics, and as such ask you to define what "energy", "fluidity", "matter", "pulse", "flow", and "neural network" mean in this context?

An evolved path of least resistance, created by the interaction of organism with environment...or continuous usage strengthens the neural cluster...whereas no continuous flow atrophies it.
Therefore we also get behavioral predictability as continuous usage of particular neural paths establishes them.

Think not. That you make such connections just means to me that you have a political agenda.

Twat, the same can be said about anyone.
Did the chicken come before the egg or the egg before the chicken, twat?

The harmony between my metaphysics and physics only means I have accurately perceived reality and THEN created an agenda upon these perceptions. If I hadn't done it that way then I could not have harmonized them.
I would have been like you, a twat.

See, twat, the mistake twats, like you make is that you take yourselves as an example with no exception...being absolutist nihilists. Because your kind uses personal preference to manufacture world-views around it...or adopt world-views that sooth their needs, they assume that all benefit immediately and directly from their own views...and so they seek the agenda behind the view, because their have one behind their own.
The idea of considering something more probable despite being unflattering or challenging or hurtful is completely alien to them.
That's why they seek the self-flattery behind all views, as if all are like them.

Therefore, my opinions on beauty can only mean one thing and one thing only.
Right twat?

There is no "must" about such stuff, as Philosophy has pretty much given up such nonsense as the Newtonians kicked our arses about such matters. That you wish it to be so is either because you still wish nannys comfort or that you have a political agenda.

Ha!!!

Time for one-thousand obtuse questions now.

I'll leave that for others to decide.[/quote]And they are all just like you, my dearest twat.
But their judgments do not matter to me....twat.
If I were born during the Middle Ages would the judgments of those moderns matter to me?
If I were born in Iran would the majority's opinion matter to me?

Twat...no counter-arguments worth shit....no give a shit.
Bad grammar, twat?
All you got is innuendos and schoolyard tactics.
I reciprocate on your level.

[Greylorn Ell]

nameless
On Occam's Razor, if my life is empty it adheres to OR, if the region I live in adheres to OR it must be empty, and so on with the whole world and the universe! What is the principle of OR in evolution? That there should only be a few species!

But alright, OR is only meant for the theoretical expression where two competing theories are in the race and they are equivalent and one of them is more complex than the other.

I'd say if the "soul"/bodiless mind is confirmed, a revision of Dualism may follow! That's all!

Aetix,

I appreciate what you seem to be trying to get across here and admire your persistence.

May I recommend that you peruse Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." He will explain how your last statement is mistaken, in the back-assward fashion. (No insult intended here.) The revision of Dualism must precede acceptance of the data.

By way of evidence, look at the homework you've already done. Look at your own personal paranormal experiences, and acknowledge that they have been common experiences to others for decades. The data, like the poor, will always be with us.

The revised version of Dualism has been around for a half-century. Selling it is a bitch. It cannot be sold to anyone with preconceived ideas, meaning 97% if the population. It will not make sense to those who imagine that they can understand metaphysics while ignoring the root of that word.

Greylorn