The True Believer Revisited

[Arising_uk]

Yes, you have a point here. Perhaps I am reading into it too much. But what about the other thing I mentioned?

What thing? The artists? If so I thought I'd made my point, that yours is a pipe dream if what you and Hoffer say about them is true.

AS: I would work on it if I had it....but I don't so I won't.

Then stop calling men stupid but adorable. Would you like it if I called women those pretty little flutter-heads.

[artisticsolution]

a:What thing? The artists? If so I thought I'd made my point, that yours is a pipe dream if what you and Hoffer say about them is true.

AS: No this quote:

"But this is not an authoritative textbook. It is a book of thoughts, and it does not shy away from half-truths so long as they seem to hint at a new approach and help to formulate new questions."

AS:I think this means that he is not writing it to be taken as a 'manual' as you suggest.

AS: I would work on it if I had it....but I don't so I won't.

A:Then stop calling men stupid but adorable. Would you like it if I called women those pretty little flutter-heads.

AS: I would not mind if you called women pretty little flutter heads. I would not think you a misogynist. I think I know you better than that...and I believe that if you said something like that it would be in fun...in a tounge a cheek type of way. However, out of respect for your feelings I will stop calling men stoopid but adorable. Although it's going to be really really hard...

[reasonvemotion]

" It is somewhat terrifying to realize that the totalitarian leaders of our day, in recognizing this source of desperate courage, made use of it not only to steel the spirit of their followers but also to break the spirit of their opponents."

Steel used in this context (recognizing this source of desperate courage, made use of it to) "strengthen" the spirit of their followers?

[artisticsolution]

Thanks reasonvemotion! I didn't even think of reading it that way.

[Arising_uk]

"But this is not an authoritative textbook. It is a book of thoughts, and it does not shy away from half-truths so long as they seem to hint at a new approach and help to formulate new questions."

AS:I think this means that he is not writing it to be taken as a 'manual' as you suggest. ...

Fair point and I accept that I'm reading my own interests into it. I take it to mean that he accepts that his generalizations are not necessarily true and that he's issuing a challenge of some sort. What I've yet to get to.

[artisticsolution]

Thanks to reasonvemotion, I have been reading hoffer in a whole new light. I so enojoyed her pointing out a visual image that I could get behind...steel (steal) not as in taking something...but as in strength! I love it!

Now my curiosity is piqued about this guy...and what makes him tick. I found this interview on you tube....I have only watched the 1st part so far but I like what he has to say. Seems like a simple enough fellow but one who puts words together in a most unique way!

If you can steal yourself away, please take a moment to watch it with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcv4HyEY3w

I also looked him up on wikipedia and it seems his story is too dramatic to be true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer

See what you miss out on when you don't read..and another thing...shame on you intellectuals for not hitting us non intellectuals over the head with a few pertinent quotes from people like this, that might intrigue/challenge the us into learning. What a waste of mass intelligence to waste our time teaching us boring shit we will never use in our lifetimes! It kinda pisses me off...to think all the hours and stress I had learning algebra when I could have used that time learning something useful...something I could have used in life or at least to get me to understand sooner why an education is important! *&%!$!@%&#*@&!

[tbieter]

Thanks to reasonvemotion, I have been reading hoffer in a whole new light. I so enojoyed her pointing out a visual image that I could get behind...steel (steal) not as in taking something...but as in strength! I love it!

Now my curiosity is piqued about this guy...and what makes him tick. I found this interview on you tube....I have only watched the 1st part so far but I like what he has to say. Seems like a simple enough fellow but one who puts words together in a most unique way!

If you can steal yourself away, please take a moment to watch it with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcv4HyEY3w

I also looked him up on wikipedia and it seems his story is too dramatic to be true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer

See what you miss out on when you don't read..and another thing...shame on you intellectuals for not hitting us non intellectuals over the head with a few pertinent quotes from people like this, that might intrigue/challenge the us into learning. What a waste of mass intelligence to waste our time teaching us boring shit we will never use in our lifetimes! It kinda pisses me off...to think all the hours and stress I had learning algebra when I could have used that time learning something useful...something I could have used in life or at least to get me to understand sooner why an education is important! *&%!$!@%&#*@&!

But, learning algebra sharpened your mind!

[artisticsolution]

But, learning algebra sharpened your mind!

From dullest to merely dull? No Tom, I am convinced if I was taught philosophy or even sent to a school for art at an earlier age, I would be way ahead of the game in my career not only that...in my contribution to society.

There is no crime in not learning algebra. Let it be an elective, for the kids who excel in math or want to go on to be engineers or some other such career. Or at least tell the kids before they learn algebra how it will be useful in their lives.

It is my opinion that teaching the masses etiquette would be more practical than teaching algebra. It would make for a more polite society and possibly reduce crime. I believe much of the problem of crime is due to the lack of respect for others...not only in regard to not respecting other's property...but on the other end as well. Not respecting people of low incomes. As if what they do is beneath a rich person. It is simply wrong. No wonder there is so much hate. No wonder society is in such a state of turmoil. No one can lift their head up high and be proud of who they are....because society is crude and actually has the audacity to tell them to their face and show them everyday that they suck. We breed an uncouth people from the top down!

Anyway, Eric Hoffer is the epitome of what the working class can do with self confidence instilled in them. Why not design school to fit each students individual needs? Isn't school the ultimate 'mass movement' anyway? Or at least where we learn to lose our autonomy?

[tbieter]

But, learning algebra sharpened your mind!

From dullest to merely dull? No Tom, I am convinced if I was taught philosophy or even sent to a school for art at an earlier age, I would be way ahead of the game in my career not only that...in my contribution to society.

There is no crime in not learning algebra. Let it be an elective, for the kids who excel in math or want to go on to be engineers or some other such career. Or at least tell the kids before they learn algebra how it will be useful in their lives.

It is my opinion that teaching the masses etiquette would be more practical than teaching algebra. It would make for a more polite society and possibly reduce crime. I believe much of the problem of crime is due to the lack of respect for others...not only in regard to not respecting other's property...but on the other end as well. Not respecting people of low incomes. As if what they do is beneath a rich person. It is simply wrong. No wonder there is so much hate. No wonder society is in such a state of turmoil. No one can lift their head up high and be proud of who they are....because society is crude and actually has the audacity to tell them to their face and show them everyday that they suck. We breed an uncouth people from the top down!

RE: Anyway, Eric Hoffer is the epitome of what the working class can do with self confidence instilled in them. Why not design school to fit each students individual needs? Isn't school the ultimate 'mass movement' anyway? Or at least where we learn to lose our autonomy?[/quo Your collectivist and elitist thinking (providing "the right" guidance to the working class; "instilling self-confidence" (promoting "self-esteem" is big in California!) is part of the problem. The lesson of Eric Hoffer is his autonomy. He read books. He reflected upon what he read. He, truly, was self-educated. Here is how you respond to the students' "individual needs": Teach the kids to read and write and show them the public library.

[artisticsolution]

Your collectivist and elitist thinking (providing "the right" guidance to the working class; "instilling self-confidence" (promoting "self-esteem" is big in California!) is part of the problem. The lesson of Eric Hoffer is his autonomy. He read books. He reflected upon what he read. He, truly, was self-educated. Here is how you respond to the students' "individual needs": Teach the kids to read and write and show them the public library.

I agree that every student should learn the basics...how to read and write and do arithmetic. I agree that promoting self esteem is a double edged sword...and the way it is done now certainly has had some negative effects. But I think that is because they are doing it wrong. What they are doing wrong exactly is they are teaching kids exactly alike and telling them they are good at everything!

1. By high school kids know what they have an aptitude for....they are should be able to choose the subjects best suited to their career needs.

2.Pay a decent living wage to all employed. If someone works, they should be able to afford, food and shelter, insurance, etc.

I agree that Eric Hoffer was 'self-educated', but he was lucky to be interested in books and reading. What about the student who is not? What do they become? A drain on society? Perhaps they are not equipped to be a writer....they might be equipped to be a longshoreman....or a waitress...or something else. What I am saying is there is no crime in working.

I am not saying raise their self esteem by lying to them and saying..."you would be a great mathematician if you only applied yourself!" The student knows this is not going to happen. And it belittles his own area of expertise!
Both my sons attended Magnet schools here which are very successful....one went to a school for advanced technology and the other started out at a school for culinary...but then changed after the first semester because he hated it...he also ended up at the school for advanced technology.

I believe that by going to schools that specialized in a particular field of study helped them in the lesson of autonomy. It builds real self esteem instead of the 'fake' esteem that you mention.

[tbieter]

Tim Madigan on September 11th and on a longshoreman who understood the psychology of mass movements.

http://philosophynow.org/issues/34/The_ ... _Revisited

Today I finished reading a new biography of Eric Hoffer (d. May 21, 1983), author of The True Believer, who was known as “the longshoreman philosopher.” http://www.amazon.com/Eric-Hoffer-Longs ... 971&sr=1-1

Last week I offered the book to my son, an avid reader, who is interested in politics. He replied: “Who is Eric Hoffer?” Since Nick”s undergraduate major was government, and he received a law degree immediately thereafter in 2000, I was surprised at his unfamiliarity with the author of The True Believer, a classic study of the nature of mass movements.

I thought that one of his government professors should have alerted the students to Hoffer’s book. When I was in college (1960-1964), at the start of each class the professor would hand out a bibliography of books on the course subject that he or she recommended. My favorite professor of government, a true scholar and a liberal, recommended a classic, The Conservative Mind, by Russell Kirk, a book that I’ve read several times through the years. It definitely influenced me; I have a “Kirk library” to pass on to my son.

I kept all of those handouts and consulted them through the years. Alas, from my inquiries, I’ve learned that the practice from which I benefited no longer is followed by today’s professors.

When I read Eric Hoffer's books years ago, I wondered how he satisfied his sexual needs. My question was answered in the above biography. He used prostitutes.

I now wonder how Schopenhauer satisfied his need for sexual satisfaction? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9277

Does anyone know?

[tbieter]

On another philosophy forum I recommended that THE TRUE BELIEVER be selected to be read and discussed therein as the August book of the month. I have just discovered that the book has been selected. http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 06dd75a73c Hence, I'll be getting the book on my Kindle to reread and discuss. I'm curious to see how the discussion goes.

[tbieter]

Join the discussion. http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 564#p95564

[tbieter]

Join the discussion. http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 564#p95564

Generally, after one of these mass shootings, the discussions in the media are superficial in that they usually start and end with the subject of better gun control laws as needed preventive measures. I submit that laws will not stop the fanatic who intends to commit violence against others. Hoffer's "true believer" is a perennial type of person. We can still learn from him.

Alleged Sikh temple shooter former member of Skinhead band
By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

The man who allegedly murdered six people at a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee yesterday, identified in media reports as Wade Michael Page, was a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/n ... nhead-band

“It is probably as true that violence breeds fanaticism as that fanaticism begets violence. It is often impossible to tell which came first. Both those who employ violence and those subject to it are likely to develop a fanatical state of mind. Ferrero says of the terrorists of the French Revolution that the more blood they “shed the more they needed to believe in their principles as absolutes. Only the absolute might still absolve them in their own eyes and sustain their desperate energy. [They] did not spill all that blood because they believed in popular sovereignty as a religious truth; they tried to believe in popular sovereignty as a religious truth because their fear made them spill so much blood.”28 The practice of terror serves the true believer not only to cow and crush his opponents but also to invigorate and intensify his own faith. Every lynching in our South not only intimidates the Negro but also invigorates the fanatical conviction of white supremacy.” (Emphasis added)
Hoffer, Eric (2011-05-10). The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (Perennial Classics) (p. 107). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

[tbieter]

I finished rereading The True Believer. Here is the last paragraph in the book:

"J. B. S. Haldane counts fanaticism among the only four really important inventions made between 3000 B.C. and 1400 A.D.20 It was a Judaic-Christian invention. And it is strange to think that in receiving this malady of the soul the world also received a miraculous instrument for raising societies and nations from the dead—an instrument of resurrection."
Hoffer, Eric (2011-05-10). The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (Perennial Classics) (p. 168). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

-------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBS_Haldane

Disagreeing with Haldane's opinion on the nature of the cause of fanaticism, I remembered that Jacques Maritain had written on fanaticism. And I was able to find his relevant quote:

"It is nonsense to regard fanaticism as a fruit of religion. Fanaticism is a natural tendency
rooted in our basic egotism and will to power. It seizes upon any noble feeling to live on it."
Jacques Maritain, "Truth and Human Fellowship", p. 21

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Fanaticism
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Emotion

In your opinion, what is the fundamental cause of fanaticism?