Hajj

[chaz wyman]

Unless you define yourself by the language you speak. But what this actually means it that all Arabs have a special relationship to Islam that no non speaker - or one for whom Arabic is a second language - can have.
I mention this as it does not apply in other religions.

We were talking about racism. A language is not a race.

We were talking about Islam. I;m saying that MalcomX's comments that racism is not present in Islam is not only ridiculous but irrelevant too. He was trading one form of oppression for another in the belief he was making an informed choice about his god.
Saudi Arabia for example has many racist laws, based on a hierarchy of races. Its a matter of not practicing what you preach. Ask any Philipino that has been hired as a 'slave' there
And whilst they all collect round the Hajj with their arses in the air pretending to be equal, as soon as they move away they are back to their prejudice.
Malcom-X's problem is that Christianity which he rejected is no different, in this respect. In the US the whites in the south had a bible in one hand and a lynch rope in the other.
Racism world-wide was born from Monotheism and there is little in the religious creed to support racial equality. In fact the entire edifice of religion is based on a hierarchy of the divine, which has been employed throughout history to suppress freedom of thought and freedom of action.

[lennartack]

We were talking about Islam. I;m saying that MalcomX's comments that racism is not present in Islam is not only ridiculous but irrelevant too. He was trading one form of oppression for another in the belief he was making an informed choice about his god.
Saudi Arabia for example has many racist laws, based on a hierarchy of races. Its a matter of not practicing what you preach. Ask any Philipino that has been hired as a 'slave' there
And whilst they all collect round the Hajj with their arses in the air pretending to be equal, as soon as they move away they are back to their prejudice.
Malcom-X's problem is that Christianity which he rejected is no different, in this respect. In the US the whites in the south had a bible in one hand and a lynch rope in the other.
Racism world-wide was born from Monotheism and there is little in the religious creed to support racial equality. In fact the entire edifice of religion is based on a hierarchy of the divine, which has been employed throughout history to suppress freedom of thought and freedom of action.

Please elaborate your claim that Monotheism causes racism. The bible has been used as a (bad) excuse for racism, but so has science (research about difference in IQ between races).

Religion these days in the western world is not what it was "throughout history". Since you don't believe my Muslim friends, I'll give another example. My neighbour happens to have been a protestant clergyman, but he doesn't believe in factuality of the bible at all. He admires it for the cultural, historical and poetical value. Last time I went to church (don't worry, I'm not religious, I was there for musical motives) affection for Muslim and non Muslim victims of the Arab spring was preached. There is no hierarchy in protestant churches in my environment, and certainly no hierarchy of the divine.

Have you ever been asked how you could live with the idea that there is no purpose in life? Religion serves an important role to many people, in giving meaning to life. There will always be religion, so you'd better support the good forms of it than entirely be against it.

[chaz wyman]

We were talking about Islam. I;m saying that MalcomX's comments that racism is not present in Islam is not only ridiculous but irrelevant too. He was trading one form of oppression for another in the belief he was making an informed choice about his god.
Saudi Arabia for example has many racist laws, based on a hierarchy of races. Its a matter of not practicing what you preach. Ask any Philipino that has been hired as a 'slave' there
And whilst they all collect round the Hajj with their arses in the air pretending to be equal, as soon as they move away they are back to their prejudice.
Malcom-X's problem is that Christianity which he rejected is no different, in this respect. In the US the whites in the south had a bible in one hand and a lynch rope in the other.
Racism world-wide was born from Monotheism and there is little in the religious creed to support racial equality. In fact the entire edifice of religion is based on a hierarchy of the divine, which has been employed throughout history to suppress freedom of thought and freedom of action.

Please elaborate your claim that Monotheism causes racism. The bible has been used as a (bad) excuse for racism, but so has science (research about difference in IQ between races).

What is a race? Science has shown that so-called racial differences are superficial. If you take any two groups of human divided by any criteria they will show differences in IQ.


Religion these days in the western world is not what it was "throughout history".

WHich is a sad indictment on its creed which insists that a single god ought to produce a single observance.
In every instance in history where religions have been in positions of power people have suffered from oppression and restrictions on personal freedom. Due to monotheism having a single God this in practice has exaggerated this repression.
Thankfully today, the power of religion has been curbed by secular democracy.
But it remains a constant danger, as we see from the rise of Christianity in the USA over the last 30 years.

Since you don't believe my Muslim friends, I'll give another example.
I did not say that. But keep them a minority or they will fuck you up.
My neighbour happens to have been a protestant clergyman, but he doesn't believe in factuality of the bible at all. He admires it for the cultural, historical and poetical value. Last time I went to church (don't worry, I'm not religious, I was there for musical motives) affection for Muslim and non Muslim victims of the Arab spring was preached. There is no hierarchy in protestant churches in my environment, and certainly no hierarchy of the divine.

You are talking bollocks. There is hierarchy in all religions. Have you not heard of the Archbishop of Canterbury - the head of the protestant church of England? He might have binned the bible to try to keep a flock, but he still has to bow down to his Bishop - his paymaster.
Do you know the word naive?

Have you ever been asked how you could live with the idea that there is no purpose in life?

There is exactly the purpose I set for myself. I do not accept that some moron in a frock can know what that is whilst it is hermetic to me.
If you can't live with the prospect that you can't decide for yourself what your purpose is, that is not an argument for accepting a religious one.
If you think that it can only be religion that give a purpose - that ought not to be an excuse to impose a religious one on me - which is the purpose of religion.


Religion serves an important role to many people, in giving meaning to life.

And that is exactly why it is poisonous and dangerous as it put power into the hands of the priesthood to impose their own design onto the people. And that is also why people find it so willing to strap a bomb to their body and explode themselves in a busy street.


There will always be religion, so you'd better support the good forms of it than entirely be against it.

No, there might always be religion but that means it is my duty as a humans to support its demise and to encourage people to think for themselves.
There are no good forms of it.

[Khalid]

Sunni have a leadership. Ever heard of Saddam?

I thought Saddam was the president of Iraq , no more and no less . He had no control on anything else and he is not an Islamic leader . Islamic leadership (khilafa) gone away with history hundreds of years ago . The Islamic leadership and regime you talking about still exists only in the Islamic republic of Iran where they follow their Khominy .

How many of Islam's most important leaders that are NOT Arabic?

WHERE ARE MY LEADERS YOU FUNNY IDIOT IGNORANT ? I don't follow anyone .

And it is simply a fact that descendance from Mohammed is regarded as divine.

Does that still exist on earth ?

Further to that speakers of non Arabic languages are not regarded as able to understand the Koran and are expected to rely on Arabic experts.

Koran is translated into all languages . Koran explication translated to all languages . You have your brain , you have your heart . Then who chose Islam , he chose it only with his will .

[Khalid]

Chaz , If I was a non-muslim reading your comments ((neutrally)) , I'd find you an extreme atheist full of hatred and extremism. Your only motivation is hatred . You aren't discussing anything .

And whilst they all collect round the Hajj with their arses in the air pretending to be equal

Fuck you .

Ask any Philipino that has been hired as a 'slave' there

You mean they can't go back to homeland? you mean they aren't paid for their works? You mean they can't retire and abandon job they have ? you mean they don't have the freedom of action? what do you exactly mean by the word 'slave' ?

I'm too board to even continue writing a comment . In general , all what your fragile things you said about racism in Islam , Islamic leadership (which doesn't exit) , tendency to Arab muslims and intolerance of muslims . Is just unfair bullshit , lies , ignorance and hatred .

Keep your evolution Chimpanzee and atheism theories for yourself . Islam isn't an ideology nor political regime so that you can demolish it or prove it wrong with all your polemics . Islam is the surrender and submission to God , the creator , the source and reason of existence . The meaning of life with a book full of miracles , wisdom and scientific evidences . The source of purity , humanity and kindness . All your hatred won't make any change .

[chaz wyman]

Chaz , If I was a non-muslim reading your comments ((neutrally)) , I'd find you an extreme atheist full of hatred and extremism. Your only motivation is hatred . You aren't discussing anything .

Fuck you .

I don't hate you. I feel deep sympathy towards you. I hate what you believe because it is a pack of lies. I see there is much hatred in you. Your religion gives you two incompatible things which you have shown in great quantity.
1) It gives you much arrogance and pride because you believe yourself to be the chosen of Allah. You have told me that your god cars nothing more me, and that makes you think yourself great. Your book condemns me, and all other non-muslims everlasting fire.
2) You are a slave of the imam and of your God. Each day you bow to down to an illusion and stick your arse in the air in an act of debasement and servility. Whilst you pray you are nothing, and when you walk among the heathen you think yourself god-ilke.

You mind is poisoned by the most banal claims: Arabic is the mother of all language is so ridiculous it is beyond a joke.
Your rejection of archaeology and paleontology and your assertion that the Adam and Eve story is true is risible to say the least.
Your blinkered view that the Koran contains any science, not common knowledge in the time of the Prophet, has been demonstrated to be a stupid lie, and yet you are blind to your own delusion.

You are not alone. Many Christians are similarly stupefied by their own faith.

Throughout your entire time on this Forum you have proved yourself a damn fool.

If you think some of my more colourful descriptions are offensive then that is hard luck. You do not have the right to be defended against honest statements. If you are offended, so am I. Islam is offensive. It is an offence against humanity like all religions that rob people of their common sense and freedom of thought.

Perhaps you will take some of this with you and see some of the truth behind your religion; of the death and destruction it has wrought through the world, and that it continues to do so. But I doubt it. Your future is a wasteland, and then you will die having done nothing important except attempted to spread your lies.


"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

That is the truth of the President who thinks he acts in the name of God, and of the suicide bomber who thinks he acts for the will of Allah.
Your twisted beliefs are no less tragic.

I pity you.

[Khalid]

You have told me that your god cars nothing more me, and that makes you think yourself great.

No , It's not like that . You said let God ********* ... can't say it but you know what you said . Then I replied he shall not challenge you , you are nothing to him . It's not about you personally or because you are a non-muslim . There is a "hadith" of Muhammad prophet that says if all people became like the most obedient man on earth , that wouldn't add or make anything positive to God (It's going to make something positive to us) , and if all people became like the most disobedient man on earth that would also make no difference with God . You've been given the freedom of choice and they are only 60-80 years we've got then we all meet certainty . You and I will witness certainty .

Your book condemns me, and all other non-muslims everlasting fire.

Alright , if you wish believe , if you don't then don't care . I think it's easy to be denying and uncaring if you are very certain of your path in life . Christianity says I will be in hell . Judaism does the same . Everyone makes his mental choices with absolute freedom to what he believe is true.

You are a slave of the imam

oh yeah , tell me who is my Imam for truth sake ?

Each day you bow to down to an illusion and stick your arse in the air in an act of debasement and servility.

Why are you bothered of how I practice my faith?

Whilst you pray you are nothing, and when you walk among the heathen you think yourself god-ilke.

Nor walk on the earth with insolence: for thou canst not rend the earth asunder, nor reach the mountains in height.

You mind is poisoned by the most banal claims: Arabic is the mother of all language is so ridiculous it is beyond a joke.

Alright , maybe I was mistaken about that . And I just said that I 'think' that it might be the oldest language .

Your rejection of archaeology and paleontology and your assertion that the Adam and Eve story is true is risible to say the least.

And Chimpanzee evolution not risible ? Btw I don't refuse archaeology and paleontology but I refuse atheist theories . The ancient Egyptians who made an incredible civilization thousands of years ago , were they monkeys ? They reached the most glorious achievements and civilization and they believed in the afterlife . I don't think they were a people who would chose to live in a delusion .

If you think some of my more colourful descriptions are offensive then that is hard luck. You do not have the right to be defended against honest statements. If you are offended, so am I. Islam is offensive. It is an offence against humanity like all religions that rob people of their common sense and freedom of thought.

Well, you hate religions , I know your problem . let's make a deal , if science managed to find a way to make people not die or if anyone on earth could create any 'living' (an animal , an insect or whatever) , then I'll turn immediately to atheism and I'll write a statement declaring that I was the most dumb idiot ever lived .

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire.
That is the truth of the President who thinks he acts in the name of God, and of the suicide bomber who thinks he acts for the will of Allah.

Again , I don't fuckin care about them and I have no Imam . My Imam is the Koran , prophet and my conscience . Religion is the meaning of life and I don't give a shit about the stereotyped story of someone decided to deliberately end his life in the name of anything or someone who thinks himself the official representative of God like Ayatollah of Iran .

[Kayla]

Sunni have a leadership. Ever heard of Saddam?

which saddam are you talking about here

none come to mind that would make any sense

there is the late saddam hussein but he was a leader of the baath party which tended towards secularism socialism and arab nationalism and was not a religious leader in any meaningful sense

and since we know you are not a total retard you cannot possible mean him

And it is simply a fact that descendance from Mohammed is regarded as divine.

descent from muhammad is something of a big deal for shia muslims although by no means divine

it does not mean much among the sunni


please chaz you can do better than that

i am going off what i learned in high school level comparative religions class

you are supposedly a grown up and a teacher



yeah yeah my comparative religion teacher should take her head out of her ass yada yada please spare us your usual drivel

if you think i am wrong provide relevant references

[Kayla]

Chaz , If I was a non-muslim reading your comments ((neutrally)) , I'd find you an extreme atheist full of hatred and extremism. Your only motivation is hatred . You aren't discussing anything .

extreme atheists are just as scary as religious fundamentalists maybe more so

even religious extremists do not advocate taking away children from parents with wrong beliefs

but atheist extremists do

Islam isn't an ideology

now you are being as stupid as chaz

one thing i have been told about islam at a mosque - visiting one was part of a comparative religions class - is that it is a complete way of life that does not separate the secular and the religious

obviously nto all muslims agree on this but making a blanket statement about islam like this is is stupid

[Khalid]

which saddam are you talking about here

none come to mind that would make any sense

there is the late saddam hussein but he was a leader of the baath party which tended towards secularism socialism and arab nationalism and was not a religious leader in any meaningful sense

and since we know you are not a total retard you cannot possible mean him

So true , his ignorance in this part was intolerable.

descent from muhammad is something of a big deal for shia muslims although by no means divine

it does not mean much among the sunni

Right information

you are supposedly a grown up and a teacher

Supposedly!

[Kayla]

There is hierarchy in all religions.

you really should visit texas it might help to dispel some of your mistaken notions

the church i attend is a member of the southern baptist convention

the congregation fired the minister and then decided it does not even need one

the church is run by an elected executive and unelected elders - and the latter have no power beyond admonition - basically they are a bunch of old guys who have the power to tell you what they think about you and you have to be polite to them - smiling and nodding and slowly backing away while making no sudden movements is acceptable - anything else requires the executive or the whole congregation

there are plenty of independent baptist - and other - churches in my check of the woods

where is this hierarchy of which you speak

[Khalid]

now you are being as stupid as chaz

one thing i have been told about islam at a mosque - visiting one was part of a comparative religions class - is that it is a complete way of life that does not separate the secular and the religious

obviously nto all muslims agree on this but making a blanket statement about islam like this is is stupid

I meant that religion in general is not an ideology that you can easily snatch from somebody's mind .

[Kayla]

And Chimpanzee evolution not risible ?

humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor

i am not sure what is risible about that

Btw I don't refuse archaeology and paleontology but I refuse atheist theories

what is an atheist theory

scientific theories are not atheist rather they do not involve god - since saying 'god did it' has no scientific explanatory value

some people who do not understand science will insist that science has shown that there is no god although it has shown no such thing - it is just as incapable of proving that god does not exist as it is that he exists

science deals with this physical universe

one might believe - and i do - that god created the physical universe and also physical causality - but god did not cause the universe to exist in the way that physical events cause other physical events

but this is not a scientific belief - insisting otherwise is bad science and bad theology

[Khalid]

humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor

i am not sure what is risible about that

You mean chimps evolved from Adam and Eve ?

what is an atheist theory

scientific theories are not atheist rather they do not involve god - since saying 'god did it' has no scientific explanatory value

some people who do not understand science will insist that science has shown that there is no god although it has shown no such thing - it is just as incapable of proving that god does not exist as it is that he exists

science deals with this physical universe

one might believe - and i do - that god created the physical universe and also physical causality - but god did not cause the universe to exist in the way that physical events cause other physical events

but this is not a scientific belief - insisting otherwise is bad science and bad theology

Evolution theory is not a fact . Hundreds of scientists are denying and demolishing it . It's enough to search google to see the dispute about that theory ..

[chaz wyman]

You have told me that your god cars nothing more me, and that makes you think yourself great.

No , It's not like that . You said let God ********* ... can't say it but you know what you said . Then I replied he shall not challenge you , you are nothing to him . It's not about you personally or because you are a non-muslim . There is a "hadith" of Muhammad prophet that says if all people became like the most obedient man on earth , that wouldn't add or make anything positive to God (It's going to make something positive to us) , and if all people became like the most disobedient man on earth that would also make no difference with God . You've been given the freedom of choice and they are only 60-80 years we've got then we all meet certainty . You and I will witness certainty .

Your book condemns me, and all other non-muslims everlasting fire.

Alright , if you wish believe , if you don't then don't care . I think it's easy to be denying and uncaring if you are very certain of your path in life . Christianity says I will be in hell . Judaism does the same . Everyone makes his mental choices with absolute freedom to what he believe is true.

You are a slave of the imam

oh yeah , tell me who is my Imam for truth sake ?

Each day you bow to down to an illusion and stick your arse in the air in an act of debasement and servility.

Why are you bothered of how I practice my faith?

Whilst you pray you are nothing, and when you walk among the heathen you think yourself god-ilke.

Nor walk on the earth with insolence: for thou canst not rend the earth asunder, nor reach the mountains in height.

You mind is poisoned by the most banal claims: Arabic is the mother of all language is so ridiculous it is beyond a joke.

Alright , maybe I was mistaken about that . And I just said that I 'think' that it might be the oldest language .

Your rejection of archaeology and paleontology and your assertion that the Adam and Eve story is true is risible to say the least.

And Chimpanzee evolution not risible ? Btw I don't refuse archaeology and paleontology but I refuse atheist theories . The ancient Egyptians who made an incredible civilization thousands of years ago , were they monkeys ? They reached the most glorious achievements and civilization and they believed in the afterlife . I don't think they were a people who would chose to live in a delusion .

If you think some of my more colourful descriptions are offensive then that is hard luck. You do not have the right to be defended against honest statements. If you are offended, so am I. Islam is offensive. It is an offence against humanity like all religions that rob people of their common sense and freedom of thought.

Well, you hate religions , I know your problem . let's make a deal , if science managed to find a way to make people not die or if anyone on earth could create any 'living' (an animal , an insect or whatever) , then I'll turn immediately to atheism and I'll write a statement declaring that I was the most dumb idiot ever lived .

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire.
That is the truth of the President who thinks he acts in the name of God, and of the suicide bomber who thinks he acts for the will of Allah.

Again , I don't fuckin care about them

You should care. We have to care. We have to take care when we get on a plane, or a tube train.

and I have no Imam . My Imam is the Koran , prophet and my conscience . Religion is the meaning of life and I don't give a shit about the stereotyped story of someone decided to deliberately end his life in the name of anything or someone who thinks himself the official representative of God like Ayatollah of Iran .

You poor thing.
You are a westernised Egyptian separated from the realities of your own faith.
Why not fuck off and go and live their?
See how long you last?