Hajj

[Bill Wiltrack]

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...............................................................................................................Hajj




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There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and the non-white. America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought patterns previously held.
~~~ Malcolm X ~~~









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[chaz wyman]

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...............................................................................................................Hajj




............................................





There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and the non-white. America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought patterns previously held.
~~~ Malcolm X ~~~

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

Oh yeah and why are Arabs so obsessed with a hierarchy of races?

[Khalid]

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

What has he forgotten about them ?

Oh yeah and why are Arabs so obsessed with a hierarchy of races?

We are not obsessed with a hierarchy of races . Personally I learned from history and from my own personal experiences that every race of mankind has it's own characteristics . For example , English people are famous here in Arab world with their evaluation to time . When I come to a meeting on time dated , they call me English man. Swiss are known for their hard working. Arabs historically used to be famous with their hospitality and poetry , for example I remember a marvelous Arabic poem in which the poet praises his ability of expression , saying " I'm the one whose literature was seen by the blind and whose words made those having deafness hear ". In the past even before Islam people used to challenge in poetry , two poets used to judge each other in front of crowds in the market . And this is why when Quran was revealed most of Arab poets in that time said this can't be man's words . Also Eastern people generally are more emotional than western . Western are more open minded than Arabs .
All in all , I want to say we believe as everybody that every race of mankind was created with good characteristics and bad ones . Why would I make people into classes ?

[lennartack]

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

Jews tend to be racist to black jews. Black jews going to Israel used to be not given citizenship and were not accepted in society.

[chaz wyman]

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

What has he forgotten about them ?

You are so thick it is beyond words.

Oh yeah and why are Arabs so obsessed with a hierarchy of races?

We are not obsessed with a hierarchy of races .

You are living in a world of your own creation. Wake up and smell the coffee. Ask a Philippine living in Saudi, or an Indian living in Tunisia.
?

[chaz wyman]

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

Jews tend to be racist to black jews. Black jews going to Israel used to be not given citizenship and were not accepted in society.

What makes you say that? And, even if true, what makes that relevant?

[lennartack]

I think Malcolm forgot about the Jews. --- Oh yeah and all non Muslims.

Jews tend to be racist to black jews. Black jews going to Israel used to be not given citizenship and were not accepted in society.

What makes you say that?

I learned some history at school. You're the historian, you should be able to find out it's true.

And, even if true, what makes that relevant?

I thought you implied jews weren't racist, but I see now you were merely misunderstanding the word racism (jews and non-muslims aren't races).

[chaz wyman]

Jews tend to be racist to black jews. Black jews going to Israel used to be not given citizenship and were not accepted in society.

What makes you say that?

I learned some history at school. You're the historian, you should be able to find out it's true.

It is what is called a racist comment. Please cite your evidence!

And, even if true, what makes that relevant?

I thought you implied jews weren't racist, but I see now you were merely misunderstanding the word racism (jews and non-muslims aren't races).

No, All peoples tend to have members who are racist. Like, I imagine you are. I do not think the word race encapsulates a natural category but Jews can be seen as a race, as well as a religious group.
My point about Malcom X is that like many religious people he tends to see what he wants to see and disregards the rest. Only positive statements about Islam can come from such a person. His tendency towards violence, in himself, speaks volumes about his attraction to Islam and his intolerance of non-blacks generally.

As for Islam, it does not care much about races as long as certain criteria are adhered to: all acolytes much prostrate themselves in servility to Islam and its leaders; a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children; and rape victims; No one is allowed to challenge the Koran; you must all leaver your reason and brains outside the Mosque and preferably let them go altogether.
All non Muslims especially Jews are less than human.

[lennartack]

It is what is called a racist comment. Please cite your evidence!

Wikipedia has a well-cited section about it.

No, All peoples tend to have members who are racist. Like, I imagine you are. I do not think the word race encapsulates a natural category but Jews can be seen as a race, as well as a religious group.

Can't help it to use a reductio ad hitlerum. Do you know of anyone except for the nazis categorizing jews as a race?

My point about Malcom X is that like many religious people he tends to see what he wants to see and disregards the rest. Only positive statements about Islam can come from such a person. His tendency towards violence, in himself, speaks volumes about his attraction to Islam and his intolerance of non-blacks generally.

As for Islam, it does not care much about races as long as certain criteria are adhered to: all acolytes much prostrate themselves in servility to Islam and its leaders; a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children; and rape victims; No one is allowed to challenge the Koran; you must all leaver your reason and brains outside the Mosque and preferably let them go altogether.
All non Muslims especially Jews are less than human.

You are right that religious people often suffer from severe tunnel vision, and the sanctity of the Koran is problematic. Though that can lead to bad things, most religious people from all religions are perfectly tolerant towards others. I have many muslim friends, of which some are very religious, but none of them is violent or intolerant. I see no problem in Malcolm's statement that muslims are less racist, since their religious bond is indeed very strong.

[lennartack]

a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children;

If I recall correctly, sunni islam has no leaders (the last descendent of Muhammed was lost and they are waiting for his return), and most moslims are not arabic. So your claim is implausible.

[chaz wyman]

a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children;

If I recall correctly, sunni islam has no leaders (the last descendent of Muhammed was lost and they are waiting for his return), and most moslims are not arabic. So your claim is implausible.

Sunni have a leadership. Ever heard of Saddam?
They are just one faction anyway.
Meccah is controlled ny Arabs and is the centre of Islam
How many of Islam's most important leaders that are NOT Arabic?
And it is simply a fact that descendance from Mohammed is regarded as divine.

Further to that speakers of non Arabic languages are not regarded as able to understand the Koran and are expected to rely on Arabic experts.

[chaz wyman]

It is what is called a racist comment. Please cite your evidence!

Wikipedia has a well-cited section about it.

No, All peoples tend to have members who are racist. Like, I imagine you are. I do not think the word race encapsulates a natural category but Jews can be seen as a race, as well as a religious group.

Can't help it to use a reductio ad hitlerum. Do you know of anyone except for the nazis categorizing jews as a race?

Yes, many Jews do - that is why they regard black's as non Jewish - when paradoxically the blacks are more genetically Jewish than the European Jewish returnees.

My point about Malcom X is that like many religious people he tends to see what he wants to see and disregards the rest. Only positive statements about Islam can come from such a person. His tendency towards violence, in himself, speaks volumes about his attraction to Islam and his intolerance of non-blacks generally.

As for Islam, it does not care much about races as long as certain criteria are adhered to: all acolytes much prostrate themselves in servility to Islam and its leaders; a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children; and rape victims; No one is allowed to challenge the Koran; you must all leaver your reason and brains outside the Mosque and preferably let them go altogether.
All non Muslims especially Jews are less than human.

You are right that religious people often suffer from severe tunnel vision, and the sanctity of the Koran is problematic. Though that can lead to bad things, most religious people from all religions are perfectly tolerant towards others.

Until you scratch the surface! Give them a bit of power and see how quick they are to implement policy that suppresses other views and moral practices. This goes for Christians too. It is necessary for a minority to appear tolerant of others when they are faced with the majority view.
But you have only to look at the Koran to see with what contempt it views those of other religions - all of whom will ' burn in hell". A minority Moslim can be very tolerant, not so Allah.

I have many muslim friends, of which some are very religious, but none of them is violent or intolerant.
Well you have to ask yourself how long would they last in the West if they were belligerent. The Koran will give them licence to behave for the self preservation; or when able to be bigoted when they can.
I see no problem in Malcolm's statement that muslims are less racist, since their religious bond is indeed very strong.
It's irrelevant. Islam is a poison to humanity. Its views on race are a mirage.
Consider racism in a wider context - tribalism - this is exactly what is tearing apart the Middle East right now.
The Arab Spring is more to do with tribal rivalries that it is with a move to democracy. Bahrain, Iraq, Syria, and Tunisia are all examples of a minority tribe that has control over the majority.

[lennartack]

a person of any race can join Islam as long as its most important leaders remain Arabic, preferably anyone who can also trace his inheritance back to the Prophet's many bastard children;

If I recall correctly, sunni islam has no leaders (the last descendent of Muhammed was lost and they are waiting for his return), and most moslims are not arabic. So your claim is implausible.

Sunni have a leadership. Ever heard of Saddam?

Saddam was president of a country, not a religious leader.

Meccah is controlled ny Arabs and is the centre of Islam

So? Jerusalem is controlled by jews. That does not make jews the leader of anyone, though it is important to many religions.

How many of Islam's most important leaders that are NOT Arabic?

I'm not going to count them, but what about the Iranian ayatollahs?

And it is simply a fact that descendance from Mohammed is regarded as divine.

Luckily there are no known descendents from Mohammed.

Further to that speakers of non Arabic languages are not regarded as able to understand the Koran and are expected to rely on Arabic experts.

You don't have to be arab to learn arabic.

[chaz wyman]

If I recall correctly, sunni islam has no leaders (the last descendent of Muhammed was lost and they are waiting for his return), and most moslims are not arabic. So your claim is implausible.

Sunni have a leadership. Ever heard of Saddam?

Saddam was president of a country, not a religious leader.

AND the head of the Iraqi Sunnis - he copied out the Koran in his own blood.

To say that the Sunnis have no leadership is fucking asinine.

Meccah is controlled ny Arabs and is the centre of Islam

So? Jerusalem is controlled by jews. That does not make jews the leader of anyone, though it is important to many religions.

Fallacy of false comparison.
But it is so for Meccah.

How many of Islam's most important leaders that are NOT Arabic?

I'm not going to count them, but what about the Iranian ayatollahs?
Good exception.

And it is simply a fact that descendance from Mohammed is regarded as divine.

Luckily there are no known descendents from Mohammed.

There are many.
That is what people believe. I cannot say if their claims are true of false - but they are regarded as divine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid

Further to that speakers of non Arabic languages are not regarded as able to understand the Koran and are expected to rely on Arabic experts.

You don't have to be arab to learn arabic.

Unless you define yourself by the language you speak. But what this actually means it that all Arabs have a special relationship to Islam that no non speaker - or one for whom Arabic is a second language - can have.
I mention this as it does not apply in other religions.

[lennartack]

Unless you define yourself by the language you speak. But what this actually means it that all Arabs have a special relationship to Islam that no non speaker - or one for whom Arabic is a second language - can have.
I mention this as it does not apply in other religions.

We were talking about racism. A language is not a race.