The Antichrist

[lancek4]

I'll get back to you on that one.

I hope so...I would hate to think I am the only one who is willing to put their thoughts about AC on the line without fear or prosecution (persecution?) in order to have a deeper discussion about N and his philosophy. I am only here to learn and so far I am way confused. It doesn't seem like anyone wants to answer any of my questions directly.

Likewise; I am not here do much to prove others wrong as to work out my own difficulties.

What question would you like answered directly ?

[lancek4]

Found myself alone this morning. Took the opportunity to take myself to breakfast. While I waited, I begin reading a book I had downloaded to my phone, "The Antichrist" by Nietzsche. Thirty minutes later, sipping coffee, cold eggs forgotten and untouched, I realized why Arising liked Nietzsche so much. He had alot to say...didn't he? Heh....go figure.

I am still reading, but I did wonder to myself if Arising had ever read this book and my next thought was if he had ever read the bible in the fashion that Nietzsche desired from his readers. I wonder also, for that matter, if Nietzsche read the bible in the same way he wanted his readers to read him. Furthermore, I wonder if anyone reading this will read my curiosity about Arising and Nietzsche and the bible in a similar vein.


AS, it is intreguing that you would post this above here and then carry on our discussion as we have. What do you say?
Wikipedia states: "Nietzsche claimed in the Foreword to have written the book for a very limited readership. In order to understand the book, he asserted that the reader "... must be honest in intellectual matters to the point of hardness to so much as endure my seriousness, my passion."[4] The reader should be above politics and nationalism. Also, the usefulness or harmfulness of truth should not be a concern. Characteristics such as "Strength which prefers questions for which no one today is sufficiently daring; courage for the forbidden"[4] are also needed. He disdained all other readers."

[lancek4]

Found myself alone this morning. Took the opportunity to take myself to breakfast. While I waited, I begin reading a book I had downloaded to my phone, "The Antichrist" by Nietzsche. Thirty minutes later, sipping coffee, cold eggs forgotten and untouched, I realized why Arising liked Nietzsche so much. He had alot to say...didn't he? Heh....go figure.

I am still reading, but I did wonder to myself if Arising had ever read this book and my next thought was if he had ever read the bible in the fashion that Nietzsche desired from his readers. I wonder also, for that matter, if Nietzsche read the bible in the same way he wanted his readers to read him. Furthermore, I wonder if anyone reading this will read my curiosity about Arising and Nietzsche and the bible in a similar vein.


AS, I see a certain discrepancy is the forgoing statement here and your argued position in our discussion. Care to elaborate?



Wikipedia states: "Nietzsche claimed in the Foreword to have written the book for a very limited readership. In order to understand the book, he asserted that the reader "... must be honest in intellectual matters to the point of hardness to so much as endure my seriousness, my passion."[4] The reader should be above politics and nationalism. Also, the usefulness or harmfulness of truth should not be a concern. Characteristics such as "Strength which prefers questions for which no one today is sufficiently daring; courage for the forbidden"[4] are also needed. He disdained all other readers."

[lancek4]

(ooops. Thor the first post didn't go).

[artisticsolution]

AS, I see a certain discrepancy is the forgoing statement here and your argued position in our discussion. Care to elaborate?



Wikipedia states: "Nietzsche claimed in the Foreword to have written the book for a very limited readership. In order to understand the book, he asserted that the reader "... must be honest in intellectual matters to the point of hardness to so much as endure my seriousness, my passion."[4] The reader should be above politics and nationalism. Also, the usefulness or harmfulness of truth should not be a concern. Characteristics such as "Strength which prefers questions for which no one today is sufficiently daring; courage for the forbidden"[4] are also needed. He disdained all other readers."[/i]

[/quote]

Oh sorry lance....what I meant was kinda difficult to explain. Okay...it's like this. Nietzsche had a request that I am all over. Meaning I can read any book and still read it in different ways. For example, I can read the bible as an outsider...or with a christian mentality or whatever, kind of like playing a role. I do this to open my mind to what others might be thinking when they read something in such a vein. I want to know what might be going on inside their head. It is important to me. SO it was no biggie for me to do what Nietzsche requested...in fact I wanted with all I had to do that...and I have been trying to read him in they way he wanted...so that I can totally understand him and I don't have a set notion in my mind...like perhaps a devout christian would have if they read him from the point of view that he was the devil...for example. But I will read him other ways as well...because I can.

So with that being said...I wanted to know if arising...or Nietzsche had tried to read the bible as if it were a book on psychology...or something other than a religious book that (arising) might hate. Do you see what I am saying. I was wondering if arising could remove himself of preconceived ideas in order to read the bible as a work of fiction...or for even humorous or weird or whatever meaning...other than religious.

Or is it impossible.

If it is impossible then can any of us say we can truly do it with any author. Because if we read Nietzsche the way he wants us to read him...instead of with prejudice.....can we really say we have if we think it is cool to read Nietzsche. So in this case it would only be stretching outside of the herd to let your preconceived ideas go and read the bible in that light if you hated the bible. It would be the same idea for the Christian to "give up" preconceived ideas of Christianity in order to read Nietzsche.

Do you kinda get what I was saying now?

Is it possible for a non christian to read the bible in the same light as Nietzsche would have a person read him?

It is the "strength and the daring" to put oneself out of ones comfort zone in order to get a better understanding of things one cannot know unless one experiences then...or at least tries. And by that I don't mean to get a "religious" experience...but only to openly go into something that one adamantly opposes with a genuine intent to be above what they consider "forbidden."

[Arising_uk]

...
So with that being said...I wanted to know if arising...or Nietzsche had tried to read the bible as if it were a book on psychology...or something other than a religious book that (arising) might hate. Do you see what I am saying. I was wondering if arising could remove himself of preconceived ideas in order to read the bible as a work of fiction...or for even humorous or weird or whatever meaning...other than religious.
...

I dare to say that I'm one of the few who has read the Bible front to back. Same as I'm currently reading the Koran.

Personally, I read it for what it is, a religious tome. That I don't believe in the 'god' it promotes may make it a different reading experience from the godbotherers I admit and I have no doubt that the contradictions are not so easily overlooked but on the whole it was a slog and definitely earned me some weird looks at the time.

A few things definitely struck me, the OT and NT should not be together. I think Christians should not refer to the OT at all but many appear to do just this in their behaviours and words.

Loved the part where married couples should take a break from each other once a year.

Was particularly struck by Jesus's command about the Lords Prayer being the only prayer a Christian should do and that one should pray it alone, in solitude, and not in groups in Church.

A fun thing was to treat it as a literal physical self-help book and search for practical techniques, so for example I took the, 'tread lightly upon the earth' bit as a command and you know what!? It felt great, as I had not noticed that I had been walking heavily, gave me a nice change of state.
p.s.
Sorry I've not been joining in the conversation but its been decades since I read Nietzsche and his Antichrist. Am thinking of re-reading it just to join in but will take a while if I do, also not sure if I wish to think him again.

[artisticsolution]

Thank you Arising. Yes, that is exactly what I meant. This is the same way I read ...I mean in a non offended way...only of course I don't have your intelligence.

I know most people think they can read an author like that...but it seems to me that they only think that because they read what they think makes them "cool" so would turn their nose up at something they thought was "uncool" which to me the Nietzsche disclaimer would still be valid.


Anyway, thanks for answering my question.

[lancek4]

AS, I see a certain discrepancy is the forgoing statement here and your argued position in our discussion. Care to elaborate?



Wikipedia states: "Nietzsche claimed in the Foreword to have written the book for a very limited readership. In order to understand the book, he asserted that the reader "... must be honest in intellectual matters to the point of hardness to so much as endure my seriousness, my passion."[4] The reader should be above politics and nationalism. Also, the usefulness or harmfulness of truth should not be a concern. Characteristics such as "Strength which prefers questions for which no one today is sufficiently daring; courage for the forbidden"[4] are also needed. He disdained all other readers."[/i]

Oh sorry lance....what I meant was kinda difficult to explain. Okay...it's like this. Nietzsche had a request that I am all over. Meaning I can read any book and still read it in different ways. For example, I can read the bible as an outsider...or with a christian mentality or whatever, kind of like playing a role. I do this to open my mind to what others might be thinking when they read something in such a vein. I want to know what might be going on inside their head. It is important to me. SO it was no biggie for me to do what Nietzsche requested...in fact I wanted with all I had to do that...and I have been trying to read him in they way he wanted...so that I can totally understand him and I don't have a set notion in my mind...like perhaps a devout christian would have if they read him from the point of view that he was the devil...for example. But I will read him other ways as well...because I can.

So with that being said...I wanted to know if arising...or Nietzsche had tried to read the bible as if it were a book on psychology...or something other than a religious book that (arising) might hate. Do you see what I am saying. I was wondering if arising could remove himself of preconceived ideas in order to read the bible as a work of fiction...or for even humorous or weird or whatever meaning...other than religious.

Or is it impossible.

If it is impossible then can any of us say we can truly do it with any author. Because if we read Nietzsche the way he wants us to read him...instead of with prejudice.....can we really say we have if we think it is cool to read Nietzsche. So in this case it would only be stretching outside of the herd to let your preconceived ideas go and read the bible in that light if you hated the bible. It would be the same idea for the Christian to "give up" preconceived ideas of Christianity in order to read Nietzsche.

Do you kinda get what I was saying now?

Is it possible for a non christian to read the bible in the same light as Nietzsche would have a person read him?

It is the "strength and the daring" to put oneself out of ones comfort zone in order to get a better understanding of things one cannot know unless one experiences then...or at least tries. And by that I don't mean to get a "religious" experience...but only to openly go into something that one adamantly opposes with a genuine intent to be above what they consider "forbidden."[/quote]

I think I understand you, and I feel some sort of 'glamor' screens your meaning from n meaning. I am not sure right now how to be clear on this.

Perhaps a quote; sec 40. :

"their revenge took the form of elevating Jesus in an extravagant fashion, and thus separating him from themselves...".

I see a correlation to what AS Is saying and this quote. What do you guys think?

[lancek4]

AS, I see a certain discrepancy is the forgoing statement here and your argued position in our discussion. Care to elaborate?



Wikipedia states: "Nietzsche claimed in the Foreword to have written the book for a very limited readership. In order to understand the book, he asserted that the reader "... must be honest in intellectual matters to the point of hardness to so much as endure my seriousness, my passion."[4] The reader should be above politics and nationalism. Also, the usefulness or harmfulness of truth should not be a concern. Characteristics such as "Strength which prefers questions for which no one today is sufficiently daring; courage for the forbidden"[4] are also needed. He disdained all other readers."[/i]

Oh sorry lance....what I meant was kinda difficult to explain. Okay...it's like this. Nietzsche had a request that I am all over. Meaning I can read any book and still read it in different ways. For example, I can read the bible as an outsider...or with a christian mentality or whatever, kind of like playing a role. I do this to open my mind to what others might be thinking when they read something in such a vein. I want to know what might be going on inside their head. It is important to me. SO it was no biggie for me to do what Nietzsche requested...in fact I wanted with all I had to do that...and I have been trying to read him in they way he wanted...so that I can totally understand him and I don't have a set notion in my mind...like perhaps a devout christian would have if they read him from the point of view that he was the devil...for example. But I will read him other ways as well...because I can.

So with that being said...I wanted to know if arising...or Nietzsche had tried to read the bible as if it were a book on psychology...or something other than a religious book that (arising) might hate. Do you see what I am saying. I was wondering if arising could remove himself of preconceived ideas in order to read the bible as a work of fiction...or for even humorous or weird or whatever meaning...other than religious.

Or is it impossible.

If it is impossible then can any of us say we can truly do it with any author. Because if we read Nietzsche the way he wants us to read him...instead of with prejudice.....can we really say we have if we think it is cool to read Nietzsche. So in this case it would only be stretching outside of the herd to let your preconceived ideas go and read the bible in that light if you hated the bible. It would be the same idea for the Christian to "give up" preconceived ideas of Christianity in order to read Nietzsche.

Do you kinda get what I was saying now?

Is it possible for a non christian to read the bible in the same light as Nietzsche would have a person read him?

It is the "strength and the daring" to put oneself out of ones comfort zone in order to get a better understanding of things one cannot know unless one experiences then...or at least tries. And by that I don't mean to get a "religious" experience...but only to openly go into something that one adamantly opposes with a genuine intent to be above what they consider "forbidden."

I think I understand you, and I feel some sort of 'glamor' or vaneer screens your meaning from Ns meaning. I am not sure right now how to be clear on this.

Perhaps a quote; sec 40. :

"their revenge took the form of elevating Jesus in an extravagant fashion, and thus separating him from themselves...".

I see a correlation to what AS Is saying and this quote. What do you guys think?[/quote]

[artisticsolution]

I think I understand you, and I feel some sort of 'glamor' or vaneer screens your meaning from Ns meaning. I am not sure right now how to be clear on this.

Perhaps a quote; sec 40. :

"their revenge took the form of elevating Jesus in an extravagant fashion, and thus separating him from themselves...".

I see a correlation to what AS Is saying and this quote. What do you guys think?

Interesting. I wish you pinpoint what you mean...you keep saying that I am.... oh shit...I forget the word you used and I am too lazy to look back through all our posts....it sort of means...disinterested or detached. Is that what you mean?

If so I would say that yes...this is one of the many ways I read...but then I change into another persona. I do this simply because I want different outlooks on things...I like to think of different scenarios and how they might compare or contrast. If I get hung up on a feeling...or want a solution now...then I can't do this because I would be stuck in the thought...Nietzsche is cool or uncool and then that would lend itself to the thought....right and wrong...and if I picked one of those in a serious way...as a little robot or something...then I would not be able to break free...I would be the "party man." Which I might be anyway....but I like to escape it for a little while sometimes...like a vacation. LOL

[lancek4]

I think I understand you, and I feel some sort of 'glamor' or vaneer screens your meaning from Ns meaning. I am not sure right now how to be clear on this.

Perhaps a quote; sec 40. :

"their revenge took the form of elevating Jesus in an extravagant fashion, and thus separating him from themselves...".

I see a correlation to what AS Is saying and this quote. What do you guys think?

Interesting. I wish you pinpoint what you mean...you keep saying that I am.... oh shit...I forget the word you used and I am too lazy to look back through all our posts....it sort of means...disinterested or detached. Is that what you mean?

If so I would say that yes...this is one of the many ways I read...but then I change into another persona. I do this simply because I want different outlooks on things...I like to think of different scenarios and how they might compare or contrast. If I get hung up on a feeling...or want a solution now...then I can't do this because I would be stuck in the thought...Nietzsche is cool or uncool and then that would lend itself to the thought....right and wrong...and if I picked one of those in a serious way...as a little robot or something...then I would not be able to break free...I would be the "party man." Which I might be anyway....but I like to escape it for a little while sometimes...like a vacation. LOL

This paragraph is very unclear. Can you reiterate?

[artisticsolution]

This paragraph is very unclear. Can you reiterate?

It is unclear because your paragraph was unclear. I was trying to help you pinpoint what it was you could not pinpoint by asking you questions about what you said.

I can't reiterate any better than that until I understand what you were trying to say to begin with.

[lancek4]

I think I understand you, and I feel some sort of 'glamor' or vaneer screens your meaning from Ns meaning. I am not sure right now how to be clear on this.

Perhaps a quote; sec 40. :

"their revenge took the form of elevating Jesus in an extravagant fashion, and thus separating him from themselves...".

I see a correlation to what AS Is saying and this quote. What do you guys think?

Interesting. I wish you pinpoint what you mean...you keep saying that I am.... oh shit...I forget the word you used and I am too lazy to look back through all our posts....it sort of means...disinterested or detached. Is that what you mean?

If so I would say that yes...this is one of the many ways I read...but then I change into another persona. I do this simply because I want different outlooks on things...I like to think of different scenarios and how they might compare or contrast. If I get hung up on a feeling...or want a solution now...then I can't do this because I would be stuck in the thought...Nietzsche is cool or uncool and then that would lend itself to the thought....right and wrong...and if I picked one of those in a serious way...as a little robot or something...then I would not be able to break free...I would be the "party man." Which I might be anyway....but I like to escape it for a little while sometimes...like a vacation. LOL

Ok. I would ask then how you undertake another persona in order, I gather, to understand anoyther person ? How might you suspend your ideas in the attempt to really get at another's ideas?

[lancek4]

I would add: what does N say is the significance of Christ and how does it relate to my quote above, and then what does this say of your effort to suspend your ideas?

[chaz wyman]

I would add: what does N say is the significance of Christ and how does it relate to my quote above, and then what does this say of your effort to suspend your ideas?

Christ is dead. All is followers are self pitying, moronic slaves, that need to seek their own manumission. Manumission is through the rejection of all religion and the discovery of the uber-mensch of the self.