Black People and Crime

[artisticsolution]

C:Then here is my answer: There is no solution based on race. That is why I asked you what you think it means.

AS:Then are you saying that nothing should be done to bring people out of poverty based on the color of their skin? BUt I was not even asking about a solution based on race..you are hung up on the color of peoples skin...I was asking about a solution based on poverty...more precisely what you think could be specifically changed to bring people out of poverty.

C:How do you account for Obama, Colin Powell, Bishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King.. do you really think they conform to your stereotype?

AS: The question is...how do you account for them? You are the one who thinks that blacks are keep down by society solely for the reason they are black. How do you account for the ones who rise above it? Could it be something in their genetic background or brain development? I just can't see how you can believe that everyone raised in poverty would turn to murder, rape, theft, etc. in order to live. You seem to have a biased look at people in poverty. I don't think that all people in poverty turn to crime. In fact, I was watching a show the other night about the rough neighborhoods of Chicago how the people of those neighborhoods are afraid to go out at all...even to get groceries because of the criminals in their neighborhoods. Seems that the drug dealers are having a hard time selling their drugs in this economy and have become very territorial and have been shooting at anything they think is "the competition"...including their customers. So how do you account for the people in poverty who don't fight? How come some turn to crime and others don't? Have you given any thought about that? Could it be something science could cure...that is if it is a predisposition toward a lack of empathy due to genetics or nutrition. Look...all I am asking is if there could be a reason other than poverty that people turn to crime. I am not talking just about the USA. I am looking all over the world. Don't you see a major difference between the middle east vs. the west as far as aggression toward humanity? Again...when's the last time you saw a swede hijack an airplane.

C:But you are a racist. A racist is one who seeks a solution based on racial characteristics.

AS: I am not a racist. You are. You are the one who is saying the white man has kept those with different racial characteristics down. You are the only one saying that the white man has made them criminals. You are also admitting that you see a difference. Don't you see, in order to make the distinction you are making you have to be able to see a difference. But yet you can't figure out why all black people that are kept down by whitie don't turn to crime.

C:This means you are using prejudice by judging a person, not on their own merits but on a set of biostats concerning others who look like them.

AS:You are wrong here. You are jumping to conclusions about what I think. You can't deny the genetic diseases that only certain races share. That is a fact. You don't even want to know why. You are fine with...it just is.

C:And the reason why black people are in the position they are is due to years of racism, from whites and because black people have accepted and culturalised their own oppression. They have become exactly what the whites want them to be.

AS:LOL. Really? You think whites "WANT" them to be criminals? How stupid of you.

C:The white record executives are lining up to sell songs and music vids that re-inforce the black-gansta as a criminal and misogynistic thug, and for black kids they represent role models in a world with very limited options. They are participating in their own oppression. The dominant group always needs scapegoats and skin colour is the best and most convenient way of identifying the out-group.
This virus has crept into Britain and now poor kids black and white follow rap and walk the walk and emulate the 'gansta' culure. They even talk black.

AS: LOL That is the stupidest thing I have heard. There is nothing wrong with "Talking black." You are just talking about superficial shit now. This has nothing to do with crime. Next you will be saying that thick Scottish accents are oppressing people in Scotland or thick New York accents are oppressing people in New York. You are the one who is racist because you want to make everyone sound alike. How about this...how about you start to enjoy the way they talk? How about you start thinking that "black talk" sound wonderfully creative and intelligent. THEN you can say you are not racist.

C:But a racist solution, rather than an economic one can only go one way. Even if you can prove people to have a greater propensity to be lazy or criminal - because they are genes the solution is to exterminate the genes involved. This means sterilisation or death.

AS: Wow you are one mean SOB. You would sterilize or put someone to death because they have a genetic predisposition toward a certain behavior?! I wasn't thinking that at all. I was thinking that if there was a way to tell which person had this then we could teach them to overcome or develop empathy for others. Obviously, not every person would hols a genetic factor or have a certain brain development that would cause them to turn to crime more easily than someone else. All I am suggesting is a scientific study and possible cure if we find out that poverty is not the reason for ALL crime. You are suggesting that we kill them!

C: Every person needs to have the right to be assessed on his or her own merits not on an accident of birth or the colour of their skin. And each deserves the same opportunities and special needs to flourish as an equal in society.

AS: I agree. I have asked you for a solution...and you gave none. Because all you want to do is complain ...you have no idea how to think any other way. Fucking useless. Tell me this....America has changed much in 50 years. We now have equal opportunities. Why is there more crime?

[Clinias]

First in the discussion that Chaz asks is what is "race"?

Well, in Latin, it is "natus" where we get the word "nation". In Greek, it is "ethnos", where we get the word "ethnicity". All three, Nation, Ethnicity, and Race mean practically the same thing. Nation is "common heritage"; having the same Patriarch. The Bible in Genesis is full of the accounts of Patriarchs and their nations. So there is a long history of this. It is part of the Natural Order. The term "race" is a French word; it has come down late in man's vocabulary. The Latin and Greek terms are much earlier.

Tribe, Clan, Race, nation, ethnos, are all Family style units. Race is nothing but Family writ large. Race is a collection of INTER-RELATED families. It is shared blood.

Second, the Soul of the Patriarch defines the race. The Patriarch passes down his characteristics to his progeny. Furthermore, the Bible is full of blessings and curses that follow, are attached to, different nations and races. As a man has a soul, so does a race have a racial soul, some call this "culture". This is the reason for the diversity of habits and styles among the people of the earth. It is a matter of Race. Since "Culture defines Politics", it can be said that "Race defines Culture". And so, it is inherent qualities and characteristics are inherent in different people.

As an American, I grew up politically correct. I was taught that way. Then, I lived in Europe for three and half years travelling from place to place working on farms and hostels. Living in Europe disabused me from political correctness. If one is honest and has eyes to see, there are racial differences. Europe is proof of that. I've also been around the world to Asia and the Middle East. Don't give me that cock and bull story of "there is no such thing as race". Only stupid dumb Americans that have never traveled outside their own state much less their own home city and have never traveled abroad and lived for awhile in another country can say stupid stuff like that.

[chaz wyman]

C:Then here is my answer: There is no solution based on race. That is why I asked you what you think it means.

AS:Then are you saying that nothing should be done to bring people out of poverty based on the color of their skin? BUt I was not even asking about a solution based on race..you are hung up on the color of peoples skin...I was asking about a solution based on poverty...more precisely what you think could be specifically changed to bring people out of poverty.

C:How do you account for Obama, Colin Powell, Bishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King.. do you really think they conform to your stereotype?

AS: The question is...how do you account for them? You are the one who thinks that blacks are keep down by society solely for the reason they are black. How do you account for the ones who rise above it? Could it be something in their genetic background or brain development? I just can't see how you can believe that everyone raised in poverty would turn to murder, rape, theft, etc. in order to live. You seem to have a biased look at people in poverty. I don't think that all people in poverty turn to crime. In fact, I was watching a show the other night about the rough neighborhoods of Chicago how the people of those neighborhoods are afraid to go out at all...even to get groceries because of the criminals in their neighborhoods. Seems that the drug dealers are having a hard time selling their drugs in this economy and have become very territorial and have been shooting at anything they think is "the competition"...including their customers. So how do you account for the people in poverty who don't fight? How come some turn to crime and others don't? Have you given any thought about that? Could it be something science could cure...that is if it is a predisposition toward a lack of empathy due to genetics or nutrition. Look...all I am asking is if there could be a reason other than poverty that people turn to crime. I am not talking just about the USA. I am looking all over the world. Don't you see a major difference between the middle east vs. the west as far as aggression toward humanity? Again...when's the last time you saw a swede hijack an airplane.

C:But you are a racist. A racist is one who seeks a solution based on racial characteristics.

AS: I am not a racist. You are. You are the one who is saying the white man has kept those with different racial characteristics down. You are the only one saying that the white man has made them criminals. You are also admitting that you see a difference. Don't you see, in order to make the distinction you are making you have to be able to see a difference. But yet you can't figure out why all black people that are kept down by whitie don't turn to crime.

C:This means you are using prejudice by judging a person, not on their own merits but on a set of biostats concerning others who look like them.

AS:You are wrong here. You are jumping to conclusions about what I think. You can't deny the genetic diseases that only certain races share. That is a fact. You don't even want to know why. You are fine with...it just is.

C:And the reason why black people are in the position they are is due to years of racism, from whites and because black people have accepted and culturalised their own oppression. They have become exactly what the whites want them to be.

AS:LOL. Really? You think whites "WANT" them to be criminals? How stupid of you.

C:The white record executives are lining up to sell songs and music vids that re-inforce the black-gansta as a criminal and misogynistic thug, and for black kids they represent role models in a world with very limited options. They are participating in their own oppression. The dominant group always needs scapegoats and skin colour is the best and most convenient way of identifying the out-group.
This virus has crept into Britain and now poor kids black and white follow rap and walk the walk and emulate the 'gansta' culure. They even talk black.

AS: LOL That is the stupidest thing I have heard. There is nothing wrong with "Talking black." You are just talking about superficial shit now. This has nothing to do with crime. Next you will be saying that thick Scottish accents are oppressing people in Scotland or thick New York accents are oppressing people in New York. You are the one who is racist because you want to make everyone sound alike. How about this...how about you start to enjoy the way they talk? How about you start thinking that "black talk" sound wonderfully creative and intelligent. THEN you can say you are not racist.

C:But a racist solution, rather than an economic one can only go one way. Even if you can prove people to have a greater propensity to be lazy or criminal - because they are genes the solution is to exterminate the genes involved. This means sterilisation or death.

AS: Wow you are one mean SOB. You would sterilize or put someone to death because they have a genetic predisposition toward a certain behavior?! I wasn't thinking that at all. I was thinking that if there was a way to tell which person had this then we could teach them to overcome or develop empathy for others. Obviously, not every person would hols a genetic factor or have a certain brain development that would cause them to turn to crime more easily than someone else. All I am suggesting is a scientific study and possible cure if we find out that poverty is not the reason for ALL crime. You are suggesting that we kill them!

C: Every person needs to have the right to be assessed on his or her own merits not on an accident of birth or the colour of their skin. And each deserves the same opportunities and special needs to flourish as an equal in society.

AS: I agree. I have asked you for a solution...and you gave none. Because all you want to do is complain ...you have no idea how to think any other way. Fucking useless. Tell me this....America has changed much in 50 years. We now have equal opportunities. Why is there more crime?

Collection of bullshit.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Even Progressive Rock Artists know it's all about 'money:' "With, without, and who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about" --Roger Waters-- Lyrics from the track "Us and Them" from the 1973 album "Dark Side of the Moon" Performed by "Pink Floyd," a classic for so many reasons.

This is due to the fact that money affords everything from basic needs such as food, cloths, shelter, and on to school supplies and fees. In the USA, you can get food stamps as compensation, which brings with it, shame, stigma, low self esteem, ridicule, alienation, envy, etc. And at some point the brighter one's that manage to stay in school despite what I've mentioned above, finally put two and two together, somewhere in the deep recesses of their minds eye, (subconscious) and realize that their position in life is simply a function of the would be slave owners of the past, the status quo keepers of the day, that built their empires on the leading edge of, (going back in time,) bombs, guns, swords, spears, clubs and stones; the killing, to get what they wanted and securing a position of power, dominance and control to ensure all others must come to them if they want to survive. "Oh you can live on 'my land' the feudal lords said, but you got to give me three quarters of what you farm to do so, because you got no where else to go, as me and my cohorts, have raped and pillaged and stole 'all' the land that's available, much more than we actually need, such that you have to come to us for the land required to live, there is no other choice but to run into the sea, as long as you're fifteen miles off 'our' coast in international waters the government says, thereby we have created you slaves, that do our work for us, so that we can sit on our fat asses while you bust yours. And as our species develops (evolves) we'll weave into the superstructure more complex structures to further cloud your minds as to the truth of our little scheme of dominance. Fast forward to today, same mentality, just a bit more polished such that laws and cages have replaced the killing, well not entirely, as it's still routinely used by those psychotic individuals that can manage to keep it together enough to channel their blood thirsty nature into a 'legal' means to express it in either law en-'force'-ment or soldiering in some war, designed by those with money to further their agenda, can you say oil (energy)?, designed to get and maintain what it is that they want, i.e., money, power and dominance and a cast of would be slaves to maintain their aloofness, and they, the poor slaves, finally snap and say, 'well if they could do it, why can't I?' My keepers, the so called elite's fore fathers, and thus their progeny raped, pillaged, stole and killed their way to the top, the hypocrites that they are, why can't I. I'll simply follow their example, fuck their smoke and mirrors. Of course if you asked them, the superstructure of lies and deception, and those things in place to ensure their dominance, precludes their answering with any certainty. And if they did manage to get in touch with what it was that drove them to it, they'd be heckled as being touched, because the superstructure, the matrix if you will, affords such deception in the covering of tracks, as with it's megalithic nature.

It's got nothing to do with black, just the continuously variable relativity of the have and have-not's, the relative degree of acceptance, how much they're paid off, if you will, as broken in, so to speak, as to their willingness of accepting their particular level upon this ladder of deceit, this pyramid scheme of 'selfishness.'

And that my friends is the truth of it, despite your willingness to accept it, which is merely ones defense of their relative position on the ladder that they've chosen to accept, as they see, at least some, chance of upward mobility.

No I didn't polish it, you'll have to muddle through it. But you're right I should keep a copy and work on it, polish it, so it's neatly arranged by paragraph into a coherent piece on the truth of the condition of man and his matrix of power and dominance. For all I know some other philosopher or philosophers have already said as much. Oh well, great minds think alike I guess, no strike that, that's bullshit, and full of my selfishness, it's more appropriate to say that the truth always seems to bubble to the surface, and that where it does is merely a function of listening without preconceived ideas, designed to ensure your purchased station in life. In other words those people that see it manage to actually put their selfishness aside for a moment.

OK, I'm done with the run on, I somehow feel exhausted, thanks for listening!

[ForgedinHell]

Chaz, and his commie-pigeon-holding theories, are childish at best. Crime is not mainly about class. Man, Marxism is dead and only idiots like you continue to parade around seeking the workers' paradise. I thought this was a forum for educated people, but apparently, it is a forum for lefty losers to spout their ignorance.

[John]

This thread is about the incidence (not their motives, or their reasons for acting, or social conditions) for the disproportionate black crime rate generally and regarding blacks offending against blacks.

That seems to exclude the areas of philosophical interest and leave only the areas of statistical interest so I'm not use the relevance here.

[SpheresOfBalance]

It's amazing, how many people have been bought and sold, and aren't even aware if it, sitting in their purchased chair of relative position, as a concession, as for what could be worse. Lost souls without a shred of decency, out only, for their own kind.

"We all figure that our homes, our homes are set above
Other people than the ones, the ones we know and love.
........In every place with a name
........They play the same territorial game
........Hiding behind the lines
........Sending up warning signs

The whole wide world
An endless universe
Yet we keep looking through
The eyeglass in reverse
Don't feed the people
But we feed the machines
Can't really feel
What international means
........In different circles
........We keep holding our ground
........Indifferent circles
........We keep spinning round and round and round"

--Neil Peart--

Fools the lot of them, with respect to truth and knowledge!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Chaz, and his commie-pigeon-holding theories, are childish at best. Crime is not mainly about class. Man, Marxism is dead and only idiots like you continue to parade around seeking the workers' paradise. I thought this was a forum for educated people, but apparently, it is a forum for lefty losers to spout their ignorance.

You're correct, It's "all" about, so called, class! At least in today's society. You see in the beginning it was all about the selfish not wanting to do the work required to sustain their lives, and so they took from others such that they managed to achieve a foothold of dominance that exists today. Those guilty shall never acknowledge the truth of the matter, because they see it as shooting themselves in their foot of luxury, and rightfully so, as it would close the disparity, thus negate their position.

Anyone that argues against my assertion is guilty of such, despite their acknowledgment. period!!!!

[chaz wyman]

Chaz, and his commie-pigeon-holding theories, are childish at best. Crime is not mainly about class. Man, Marxism is dead and only idiots like you continue to parade around seeking the workers' paradise. I thought this was a forum for educated people, but apparently, it is a forum for lefty losers to spout their ignorance.

You're correct, It's "all" about, so called, class! At least in today's society. You see in the beginning it was all about the selfish not wanting to do the work required to sustain their lives, and so they took from others such that they managed to achieve a foothold of dominance that exists today. Those guilty shall never acknowledge the truth of the matter, because they see it as shooting themselves in their foot of luxury, and rightfully so, as it would close the disparity, thus negate their position.

Anyone that argues against my assertion is guilty of such, despite their acknowledgment. period!!!!

On the same page still.

I think Forged in Hell has bought the myth that anyone can join the ruling class is enough to negate the fact that class is a factor in poverty.
He think any bus-boy or gas attendant can become a star in Hollywood. This lacks imagination.
It is true that classes in some countries are not so rigid and inflexible as they were but that doe not stop them falling into the trap of poverty and crime.
In a society where it is every man for him self, many do not feel they owe a debt of obligation to the state, and find cause for loyalty with their neighbourhood instead. Here the police are the enemy.

[artisticsolution]

[quote="chaz wyman"]



C:I think Forged in Hell has bought the myth that anyone can join the ruling class is enough to negate the fact that class is a factor in poverty.

AS: I agree that class is a factor in poverty. People tend to "look down" on low paying jobs. But the fact is there is nothing wrong with people doing these these jobs except for the pay. Pay them a decent wage and people would not look down on those positions. Yes, that is exactly how shallow people are.

C:It is true that classes in some countries are not so rigid and inflexible as they were but that doe not stop them falling into the trap of poverty and crime.

AS: And yet..you offer no solutions. How rare.

C:In a society where it is every man for him self, many do not feel they owe a debt of obligation to the state, and find cause for loyalty with their neighbourhood instead. Here the police are the enemy.

AS: You are living in a dream world. Even people in those neighborhoods are against crime. You don't think the law abiding citizens wish for a cop when their daughter or son gets shot or raped? I say they should have a separate police station all to themselves paid for by the state. Either that or they should make it easier for people of the community to band together and become cops themselves. They could have their own police academy and bring the law back to the west...like in tombstone...only for those type neighborhoods. Enough is enough...I don't think its right for these thugs to terrorize people anymore....poverty or no poverty.

Also, you are missing on very important thing....a person that has a Job...be it gas station attendant or bus boy....does not necessarily turn to crime...Hence the reason they are working. Why would you need to have a job if you are stealing your money? what would be the point?

You are just grasping at straws but you are wayyyyy off. Also, to both of you...the patriarch bullshit doesn't fly here. Making the argument, "because I said so, " is lazy and stupid....back up your arguments with a little reasoning....they sound like they are coming from a fox news conservative "think tank."

[SpheresOfBalance]

C:I think Forged in Hell has bought the myth that anyone can join the ruling class is enough to negate the fact that class is a factor in poverty.

AS: I agree that class is a factor in poverty. People tend to "look down" on low paying jobs. But the fact is there is nothing wrong with people doing these these jobs except for the pay. Pay them a decent wage and people would not look down on those positions. Yes, that is exactly how shallow people are.

C:It is true that classes in some countries are not so rigid and inflexible as they were but that doe not stop them falling into the trap of poverty and crime.

AS: And yet..you offer no solutions. How rare.

C:In a society where it is every man for him self, many do not feel they owe a debt of obligation to the state, and find cause for loyalty with their neighbourhood instead. Here the police are the enemy.

AS: You are living in a dream world. Even people in those neighborhoods are against crime. You don't think the law abiding citizens wish for a cop when their daughter or son gets shot or raped? I say they should have a separate police station all to themselves paid for by the state. Either that or they should make it easier for people of the community to band together and become cops themselves. They could have their own police academy and bring the law back to the west...like in tombstone...only for those type neighborhoods. Enough is enough...I don't think its right for these thugs to terrorize people anymore....poverty or no poverty.

Also, you are missing on very important thing....a person that has a Job...be it gas station attendant or bus boy....does not necessarily turn to crime...Hence the reason they are working. Why would you need to have a job if you are stealing your money? what would be the point?

You are just grasping at straws but you are wayyyyy off. Also, to both of you...the patriarch bullshit doesn't fly here. Making the argument, "because I said so, " is lazy and stupid....back up your arguments with a little reasoning....they sound like they are coming from a fox news conservative "think tank."

No patriarch BS here, you must be imagining things! Assuming It's because I said so, is lazy and stupid. I really love your selective blindness, you should pay more attention. No conservative here, I think you're projecting your inclinations upon me.

One can only assume that during debate, if someone of opposition is presented with a valid argument and fails to respond, it's either that the content went over their head, or they concede. Either one is fine with me.

[Clinias]

The Drudge report has got a story. St. Patricks Day, a tourist in Baltimore was punched in the face. The onlookers laughed and the people around him stripped him of his possessions---and took off his clothes.

The people involved: The Victim was an European and the perps were African-Americans.

The story is here: Crowd laughs as man is beaten

Now, we have the Trayvon Martin case where a black man was killed by an Hispanic. The media have portrayed this case as a hate crime and a racist attack upon a black person.

Trayvon Martin was a 6' tall athletic guy who was walking in a place he shouldn't have been--a gated community. The school he attended, knew that he committed burglaries. On the Internet, he shows his 'hood' or 'gangsta' behavior.

Trayvon Martin assaulted George Zimmerman, an Hispanic, and had him on the ground pummeling him which is normal African practice of violence. They keep on beating anybody until their victims are senseless. Zimmerman pulls out a gun and shoots.

Everybody blows up and the President Marxist of Amerika says that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin.

The word is stay out of way of blacks because they will out of the blue assault you and if you don't have a gun, you will end up like that tourist in Baltimore, beaten and stripped while they laugh at you.

Amerika is the land of barbarians. There is no more civilization in this country.

[Arising_uk]

Chaz, and his commie-pigeon-holding theories, are childish at best. Crime is not mainly about class. Man, Marxism is dead and only idiots like you continue to parade around seeking the workers' paradise. I thought this was a forum for educated people, but apparently, it is a forum for lefty losers to spout their ignorance.

So tell us what the causes of 'crime' are then? In fact tell us what you think are crimes?

This place also appears to be where the uneducated right-wing come to display their ignorance. So whilst communism may be dead why do you think this applies to Marx's Historical Materialism? As so far it looks to be working out along the way he said it would. Feudalism, Capitalism and Democracy, and we await to see if Socialism appears, dependent of course upon whether the dynamism of Capitalism allied with Science and Technology can solve the problem of scarce and unevenly distributed resources and provide us with a new 'industrial' revolution to replace the old industrial one, so that the forces of production change and hence the social relations.

[Arising_uk]

... Amerika is the land of barbarians. There is no more civilization in this country.

As opposed to when? When they laughed and whooped whilst slaughtering the Red Indian women and children? When they enslaved the African and raped their women at will? When they used to laugh when lynching blacks and hanging them from trees? When was this 'civilization' you chat about?

[John]

This thread is about the incidence (not their motives, or their reasons for acting, or social conditions) for the disproportionate black crime rate generally and regarding blacks offending against blacks.

That seems to exclude the areas of philosophical interest and leave only the areas of statistical interest so I'm not sure of the relevance here.