The Success of the Establishment of the Church of England.

[chaz wyman]

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/ ... ar-outlook

Results of a poll carried out by Ipsos MORI for the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (UK) show that UK Christians are overwhelmingly secular in their attitudes on a wide range of issues.

The study also reveals that Christianity has become a minority activity and even those who define themselves in the Census as Christian have very little attachment to or desire to practise their claimed faith.

The research was carried out in the week after the 2011 Census and focused on the beliefs, attitudes and practices of UK adults who say they were recorded as Christian in the 2011 Census (or would have recorded themselves as Christian had they answered the question).

The poll contradicts claims that Britain is "a Christian country".

The Church of England point out whenever they have the opportunity that 72% of people ticked the "Christian" box in the 2001 census but this new research confirms that this figure is meaningless.

People are much more likely to consider themselves to be Christian because they were christened or baptised into the religion (72%) or because their parents were members of the religion (38%) than because of personal belief.

As many as half (50%) of do not think of themselves as religious and less than a third (30%) claim to have strong religious beliefs.

The poll revealed that, on balance, significantly more Christians:
- agree that the law should apply equally to everyone, regardless of their religion or belief (92% v 2%)
- oppose religion having special influence on public policy (74% v 12%)
- oppose the UK having an official state religion (46% v 32%)
- oppose seats being reserved for Church of England bishops in the House of Lords (32% v 25%)
- support the costs of hospital chaplains being met by the chaplain's religious organisation rather than from NHS budgets (39% v 32%)
- want state-funded schools to teach knowledge about the world's main faiths even-handedly, rather than inculcate beliefs (57% v 15% solely Christian inculcation or 8% inculcate other school faith)
- approve of sexual relations between two adults of the same sex than do not (46% v 29%)
- approve of an adult woman's right to have an abortion within the legal time limit (62% v 20%)
- support the legalisation of assisted suicide in the case of terminally ill adult patients with safeguards (59% v 21%)

While Christians are more likely to support than oppose state-funded 'faith schools', this support is reduced when non-Christian schools are included. Less than half (45%) support state-funded faith schools for any religion, whether Christian or non-Christian, while just over half (53%) are in favour of state-funded schools for Christian denominations.

The current law in England and Wales requiring state schools to hold a daily act of broadly Christian worship is not strongly supported either, with almost as many Christians opposing to it (36%) as in favour (39%).

Terry Sanderson, President of the National Secular Society, said:

"These findings show the compete fallacy of recent claims by both bishops and Secretary of State for Communities, Eric Pickles MP that "we are a Christian country" in anything but a constitutional sense.

"They also confirm that church leaders are significantly misrepresenting the views of their followers in the very areas where the leaders seek the hardest to influence Government policy.

"The more the Government heeds the bench of bishops and other religious leaders on key ethical issues, the more democracy is undermined. Politicians should also take careful note that "Eight out of ten (78%) say Christianity would have no, or not very much, influence on how they vote in General Elections".

Richard Dawkins, an Honorary Associate of the National Secular Society, said:

"Britain is a secular society, with secular, humane values. There is overwhelming support for these values, even among those who think of themselves as Christian. Just as importantly, there is also deep opposition to the state promoting religion in our society. When even Christians overwhelmingly oppose the intermingling of religion and state policy, it is clearly time for the government to stop 'doing God'."

We are grateful to the Foundation for commissioning this information that exposes myths which the establishment has been rather too keen to foster.

The full findings can be found on the Richard Dawkins Foundation website.

Thought this might be of interest (found on AtheismForums.com)

[tbieter]

I think that you atheists are sociopaths. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/did-act ... ociopaths/

[bobevenson]

Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

[chaz wyman]

I think that you atheists are sociopaths. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/did-act ... ociopaths/

Denzil Washington is your guide?


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions" KM

[chaz wyman]

Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

You kill me!
Trust you to completely miss the point of the link.

[bobevenson]

Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

You kill me!
Trust you to completely miss the point of the link.

I didn't look at the link, I just wanted to make the point that Christianity was the largest religion in the world.

[Gary]

Amen

[John]

I think Denzel's obviously right because religious people never cause any problems do they. It's not like they'd bomb you or anyth...oh wait.

In saying that, he played Malcolm X so he must be right.

[chaz wyman]

Okay what Denzil said was that most sociopaths are atheists.
A claim for which he has not a shred of evidence.
It seems to me that the more Christian a person is the likely that this person who be sociopathic.
Is it not true that the Christian belief system is by nature sociopathic in that it seeks to divide the social sphere into those that will , and those that will not be saved in the forthcoming conflagration? What could be more sociopathic?

[Thundril]

Atheism doesn't have genocide amongst its founding principles. Christianity declares itself to be founded on the Scriptures, which are full of genocides, massacres, floods etc, actually committed or commanded by their God. That's where the whole belief system starts from; and it ends with an avatar of their god being tortured to to death.
Atheism, OTOH, is merely an absence of belief in any supernatural beings, whether Jahweh, Cthulu, or Dracula.

[chaz wyman]

Atheism doesn't have genocide amongst its founding principles. The bible is full of genocides, massacres, floods etc, actually committed or commanded by their God. That's where the whole belief system starts from.
Atheism, OTOH, is merely an absence of belief in a genocidal god, whether Jahweh, Cthulu, or Kali.

Atheism does not have ANY founding principles, except where is has been treated as a fetish like it is with Godfree and Stalin.
The point about the church being established with the state in the UK, is that the democratic system does not allow it to follow up on those principles. In the US the church acts in the other direction - more like a democratic pressure group. That is why US politicians find themselves playing lip-service to the founding principles whilst committing genocide on places like Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and Invading places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Thundril]

Atheism does not have ANY founding principles, except where is has been treated as a fetish like it is with Godfree and Stalin.

Quite right, Chaz. Careless phrasing on my part.

The point about the church being established with the state in the UK, is that the democratic system does not allow it to follow up on those principles. In the US the church acts in the other direction - more like a democratic pressure group. That is why US politicians find themselves playing lip-service to the founding principles whilst committing genocide on places like Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and Invading places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

The UK is supposed to be a democracy. Most of us are not Xians. Most of us don't want this or that superstition-club dictating our laws.
At present, the people of North Africa and the Middle East are struggling to find a way to reconcile their version of the authoritarian-genocidal Abrahamic 'faith' with moves toward democracy.
In the US, it looks like things are moving in the opposite direction, away from democracy towards theocracy..
There are powerful people who want the UK to follow the US on this track, and the survey you cite suggests that the majority of UK citizens would rather not go there. We're not that stupid.

[tbieter]

Atheism does not have ANY founding principles, except where is has been treated as a fetish like it is with Godfree and Stalin.

Quite right, Chaz. Careless phrasing on my part.

The point about the church being established with the state in the UK, is that the democratic system does not allow it to follow up on those principles. In the US the church acts in the other direction - more like a democratic pressure group. That is why US politicians find themselves playing lip-service to the founding principles whilst committing genocide on places like Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and Invading places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

The UK is supposed to be a democracy. Most of us are not Xians. Most of us don't want this or that superstition-club dictating our laws.
At present, the people of North Africa and the Middle East are struggling to find a way to reconcile their version of the authoritarian-genocidal Abrahamic 'faith' with moves toward democracy.
In the US, it looks like things are moving in the opposite direction, away from democracy towards theocracy..
There are powerful people who want the UK to follow the US on this track, and the survey you cite suggests that the majority of UK citizens would rather not go there. We're not that stupid.

Unlike the UK and your approval of the monolithic welfare state, conservatives in the U.S. value pluralism and checks and balances as restraints upon the states' and federal governments.

While you have repudiated your legacy from Edmund Burke, we still try to protect "little platoons." http://www.igreens.org.uk/little_platoons.htm And now, we try to protect the little platoons from the foreign liberalism of the Obama Administration.

[Thundril]

Unlike the UK and your approval of the monolithic welfare state,

Who approves of the 'monolithic welfare state, Tom? Are you making assumptions from generalisations, maybe?

. . conservatives in the U.S. value pluralism and checks and balances as restraints upon the states' and federal governments.

While you have repudiated your legacy from Edmund Burke, we still try to protect "little platoons." http://www.igreens.org.uk/little_platoons.htm And now, we try to protect the little platoons from the foreign liberalism of the Obama Administration.

I'm touched that you feel the need to protect poor little vulnerable US from a few foreign atheist criticisms. But to get back to the actual topic; Is it acceptable, in an old democracy like the UK, for a state-sponsored religious group to use its influence to distort the wishes of the people?
Is it acceptable, in a great democracy like the US, that a particular set of religious adherents should be allowed to use their considerable wealth to enhance the political careers of their chosen candidates?
Is it in your opinion a great and wise decision your founding fathers took, in striving to keep religion out of politics, and personal to the individual?

[chaz wyman]

Atheism does not have ANY founding principles, except where is has been treated as a fetish like it is with Godfree and Stalin.

Quite right, Chaz. Careless phrasing on my part.

The point about the church being established with the state in the UK, is that the democratic system does not allow it to follow up on those principles. In the US the church acts in the other direction - more like a democratic pressure group. That is why US politicians find themselves playing lip-service to the founding principles whilst committing genocide on places like Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and Invading places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

The UK is supposed to be a democracy.

Indeed the US is also supposed to be a democracy.

Most of us are not Xians.

That is factually inaccurate, as the survey shows. But it is true that few care much or actively practice it. I content that is simply because no one feels the need because the state and the church are one.

Most of us don't want this or that superstition-club dictating our laws.
And yet despite religion having representation this does not happen.
At present, the people of North Africa and the Middle East are struggling to find a way to reconcile their version of the authoritarian-genocidal Abrahamic 'faith' with moves toward democracy.
That is how it is presented by the Western press, but the facts seem to be pointing to and anti-tyrrany, tribal based rebellion that has moved Islam up the agenda and not down it. Take a look at what has happened in Egypt - the Muslim Brotherhood has allied with the military to control the government.

In the US, it looks like things are moving in the opposite direction, away from democracy towards theocracy..
No, they are obsessively religious through democracy.
There are powerful people who want the UK to follow the US on this track,
Name One!
and the survey you cite suggests that the majority of UK citizens would rather not go there. We're not that stupid
Then they shall not have it.
The union of church and state guarantees it.

.