If God Exists, Is It Our God?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Maybe Quarks , the smallest building block of matter we know of,
are too small for us to ever detect , like nutrino's
and if matter is broken down to that level ,
one could argue it doesn't exist because for all purposes ,
it doesn't ,
many argue what is beyond the known universe is not relevant
and we could argue what is too small to register ,
is not relevant ,,???

So what you are saying is that you are basing your belief system on a thing that does not exist.
Sounds exactly like your Atheism religion.

There has been suggestion that things pop in and out of existence ,
but if matter is breaking down to components so small as to be beyond our ability to detect them , then we would assume they are not there ,
so we would see matter popping in and out of existence as it formed atoms and fell apart again , but the matter is as usual merely being re-arranged ,
Having said that , I believe we should be able to know what exists beyond the known universe ,
it's called logic , if we can't find any examples in the known universe ,
which lets face it is pretty big , then why would we assume when you get out of the known universe everything that we have learned goes out the window,
we could equally assume that it is all the same,
and that the rest of the infinite universe is pretty much the same as the known universe , same laws , same matter , same idiots trying to work it out,,!!!

I'm sure that an entire multi-volume encyclopedia set of extensive numbers could be filled with the truth that no human knows.
The arrogance of man is a laughing matter! Or is that stupidity?

You gotta love Socrates though:
'I only know that I know nothing'

I believe he was the first and last man to have the right attitude!

Humility!

[Godfree]

So what you are saying is that you are basing your belief system on a thing that does not exist.
Sounds exactly like your Atheism religion.[/quote]
There has been suggestion that things pop in and out of existence ,
but if matter is breaking down to components so small as to be beyond our ability to detect them , then we would assume they are not there ,
so we would see matter popping in and out of existence as it formed atoms and fell apart again , but the matter is as usual merely being re-arranged ,
Having said that , I believe we should be able to know what exists beyond the known universe ,
it's called logic , if we can't find any examples in the known universe ,
which lets face it is pretty big , then why would we assume when you get out of the known universe everything that we have learned goes out the window,
we could equally assume that it is all the same,
and that the rest of the infinite universe is pretty much the same as the known universe , same laws , same matter , same idiots trying to work it out,,!!![/quote]I'm sure that an entire multi-volume encyclopedia set of extensive numbers could be filled with the truth that no human knows.
The arrogance of man is a laughing matter! Or is that stupidity?

You gotta love Socrates though:
'I only know that I know nothing'

I believe he was the first and last man to have the right attitude!

Humility![/quote]
Humility , the act of being humble , submissive ,to the higher power ,
fact is Sob we now a shit load of stuff now ,
and lets face it , in Socrates time , they did know very little,
one of my favourite quotes comes from that time tho ,,
"A common person sees religion as real ,
A wise person sees religion as false ,
and a politician sees religion as useful,"
not much has changed ,
but now we know about the laws of physics ,
we now know if we want to travel to the stars , even our closest one will take 75 to 80 thousand years to get there ,
so we know we are not going to fly ships to the stars ,
we are not going to time travel , travel down worm holes to the other side ,
and we also know that Aliens haven't been here on earth,
for the same reasons that we aren't there visiting them ,
it's just too far , simple as that , there are many things we can't change ,
and the sheer distance between us will keep us isolated ,

The best chance we have is Seti ,
the search for a signal , apart from microbial life ,
which we may find on Mars or one of the other bodies in our solar system,
the only way we will find another intelligence is Seti ,
we aren't going to fly there in the foreseeable future ,
but we may find a signal ,,!!!

[Arising_uk]

...
we now know if we want to travel to the stars , even our closest one will take 75 to 80 thousand years to get there ...

Not really, if we used the Orion nuclear-pulse technology designed in late 50s early 60's and depending which design it'd take anywhere between 44 to 1000 years.

so we know we are not going to fly ships to the stars ...

We may well be sending smaller probes tho'.

[SpheresOfBalance]

So what you are saying is that you are basing your belief system on a thing that does not exist.
Sounds exactly like your Atheism religion.

There has been suggestion that things pop in and out of existence ,
but if matter is breaking down to components so small as to be beyond our ability to detect them , then we would assume they are not there ,
so we would see matter popping in and out of existence as it formed atoms and fell apart again , but the matter is as usual merely being re-arranged ,
Having said that , I believe we should be able to know what exists beyond the known universe ,
it's called logic , if we can't find any examples in the known universe ,
which lets face it is pretty big , then why would we assume when you get out of the known universe everything that we have learned goes out the window,
we could equally assume that it is all the same,
and that the rest of the infinite universe is pretty much the same as the known universe , same laws , same matter , same idiots trying to work it out,,!!![/quote]I'm sure that an entire multi-volume encyclopedia set of extensive numbers could be filled with the truth that no human knows.
The arrogance of man is a laughing matter! Or is that stupidity?

You gotta love Socrates though:
'I only know that I know nothing'

I believe he was the first and last man to have the right attitude!

Humility![/quote]
Humility , the act of being humble , submissive ,to the higher power ,
fact is Sob we now a shit load of stuff now ,
and lets face it , in Socrates time , they did know very little,
one of my favourite quotes comes from that time tho ,,
"A common person sees religion as real ,
A wise person sees religion as false ,
and a politician sees religion as useful,"
not much has changed ,
but now we know about the laws of physics ,
we now know if we want to travel to the stars , even our closest one will take 75 to 80 thousand years to get there ,
so we know we are not going to fly ships to the stars ,
we are not going to time travel , travel down worm holes to the other side ,
and we also know that Aliens haven't been here on earth,
for the same reasons that we aren't there visiting them ,
it's just too far , simple as that , there are many things we can't change ,
and the sheer distance between us will keep us isolated ,

The best chance we have is Seti ,
the search for a signal , apart from microbial life ,
which we may find on Mars or one of the other bodies in our solar system,
the only way we will find another intelligence is Seti ,
we aren't going to fly there in the foreseeable future ,
but we may find a signal ,,!!![/quote]
Not quite! We only know now, what we know now, like they knew then, what they knew then, and like that which they thought they knew then, that we know now was false, what we know now, shall be found in the future, to be just as false.

It's common for each generation, each age, to believe that they have reached the pinnacle of understanding in their age, only to be proven incorrect, in the new age's that were yet to come. Of course this shall only continue as long as the balance our planet enjoys is maintained long enough for us to be proven incorrect, at which time we may have personal transportation devices in our living rooms that literally take us to the farthest reaches of the universe in the blink of an eye.

We, of our time, shall have to be content, at the level of understanding that we now enjoy. All that we can do, is ensure that the coming ages have the opportunity, to develop new understandings by helping to maintain the balance that we need to survive ourselves.

[Godfree]

at which time we may have personal transportation devices in our living rooms that literally take us to the farthest reaches of the universe in the blink of an eye.

I hear this type of statement a lot , but really it's about as unlikely as god ,
in the blink of an eye , even more impossible than god ,
and it is this type of claim that I'm saying we have proven to be impossible ,
just like god or heaven , hoping across the universe in the blink of an eye ,
is simply not possible , we can imagine it happening ,
but that doesn't mean it will sooner or later ,
some things will always be impossible ,
it was impossible to hop across the universe in Socrates time ,
and it's still impossible now ,
some people realized god was impossible in Socrates time ,
but the people were too stupid to realize the wisdom in front of them ,
nothings changed , Chaz still refuses to shift off his ignorance ,
stubborn old fool , insists on seeing the worst in my posts ,
trying to trip me up and make my posts out to be things they are not ,
So I do appreciate you said MAY , which does allow for may not ,
would you have a preference or one way or the other ,
do you think it is more or less likely to happen ,
I have a bro who refuses to give up the idea we will fly me to the stars ,
but I think you might as well believe in god ,
cos it's going to take a miracle , if such thing existed ,
to get you across the universe faster than the speed of light ,
we can't even get close to the speed of light ,
the 75 to 8o thousand years is with our current speeds to our nearest star,
we only have a few close ones ,
then we are looking at hundreds of light years ,
hundreds of years getting there , at the speed of light,
it currently takes us about 20thousand years to travel one light year,
fly me to the stars ,, all I can say is your drugs must be better than mine ,,!!

[Godfree]

...
we now know if we want to travel to the stars , even our closest one will take 75 to 80 thousand years to get there ...

Not really, if we used the Orion nuclear-pulse technology designed in late 50s early 60's and depending which design it'd take anywhere between 44 to 1000 years.

so we know we are not going to fly ships to the stars ...

We may well be sending smaller probes tho'.

Yes I have Carl Sagan on tape discussing the various types of rocket ,
the pulse cannon does seem like a good idea ,
I think the solar sail may be the winner tho ,
no fuel required , just a gentle push from the sun ,
I think accelerating at one G is the most obvious ploy ,
solves the bone density problem etc , but the fuel to do so ,
we just can't store enough fuel to sustain that for long enough ,
So in a moment of madness , I came up with a novel solution ,
this is not something I think will happen , but I see it as possible ,,!!!
We take the moon ,
it's going anyway , slowly but surely it is going to bugger off at some point in the future , so why not set up some massive engines and give it a helping hand , a little nudge at the right time and we could slingshot our way out of the solar system and away ,
but before Chaz tells me I'm crazy , it's just a wee fantasy for fun ,,Chaz ,
the moons got Helium three so we have a power source ,
we could have tunnel houses running lights powered by the Helium three ,
but as I say , I don't get these types of dreaming mixed up with my reality ,
I can tell the difference and don't try and mix them ,,,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

at which time we may have personal transportation devices in our living rooms that literally take us to the farthest reaches of the universe in the blink of an eye.

I hear this type of statement a lot , but really it's about as unlikely as god ,
in the blink of an eye , even more impossible than god ,
and it is this type of claim that I'm saying we have proven to be impossible ,
just like god or heaven , hoping across the universe in the blink of an eye ,
is simply not possible , we can imagine it happening ,
but that doesn't mean it will sooner or later ,
some things will always be impossible ,
it was impossible to hop across the universe in Socrates time ,
and it's still impossible now ,
some people realized god was impossible in Socrates time ,
but the people were too stupid to realize the wisdom in front of them ,
nothings changed , Chaz still refuses to shift off his ignorance ,
stubborn old fool , insists on seeing the worst in my posts ,
trying to trip me up and make my posts out to be things they are not ,
So I do appreciate you said MAY , which does allow for may not ,
would you have a preference or one way or the other ,
do you think it is more or less likely to happen ,
I have a bro who refuses to give up the idea we will fly me to the stars ,
but I think you might as well believe in god ,
cos it's going to take a miracle , if such thing existed ,
to get you across the universe faster than the speed of light ,
we can't even get close to the speed of light ,
the 75 to 8o thousand years is with our current speeds to our nearest star,
we only have a few close ones ,
then we are looking at hundreds of light years ,
hundreds of years getting there , at the speed of light,
it currently takes us about 20thousand years to travel one light year,
fly me to the stars ,, all I can say is your drugs must be better than mine ,,!!

Godfree,
I thank you for noting that I used the word 'may,' as I always try and do this, because the truth is, I just don't know, of course, how could I possibly?
It, of course, was more about the point! The point that we have always grown in understanding and that we can't possibly know today what tomorrow shall bring, unless you believe in crystal balls, and have one that you use, if so, let me see it, you're using it wrong.

Sure, I'm a hopeful, that if we don't kill ourselves off first, we have the potential of becoming something great, and of course I hope that we make it there one day. But with the current state of affairs, I'm worried that we may not! Maybe with another incarnation, but this one seems to be too idiotic.

I still see you thinking from inside that box that mankind has placed you, which is your prerogative.
Have you ever asked yourself why you've chosen to believe those things that man has given you and why you've chosen to not believe those things that man has given you? I'm assuming that you'll say "mans logic." While I'm somewhat the same as you, in that I stick by my guns, so to speak, you seem more rigid. And I mean especially with those topics that are way beyond us, i.e., the universe and the possibility of a creator.

I guess it can make one feel important that they believe they've figured it all out. I do not suffer from that delusion. I'm fine with not 'knowing' the answers to the biggest questions and leaving it up to possibilities, yet to be uncovered. It allows me to explore my imagination, and that's a lot of fun, and who knows...?

[chaz wyman]

There is not enough H3 on the moon to make its practical extraction economic for use.

[Godfree]

There is not enough H3 on the moon to make its practical extraction economic for use.

I thought the race was on and many including the Chinese were interested ,
if one was going to build a power station on the moon , it would make sense to use the H3 surely,
we keep hearing they are getting closer to fusion power ,
the next thing in the science of nuclear power ,
but we have been hearing those claims for awhile and ,
there doesn't seem to be many attempts still at this stage ,
I suppose hugely expensive and to date no reward ,but the lure ,
will keep the dream alive , could be the closest thing we will come ,
to perpetual motion or free energy ,,!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

We're not going to do anything even close to that magnitude unless we get our act together and balance our hemispheres first!

[Arising_uk]

...
the 75 to 8o thousand years is with our current speeds to our nearest star,
we only have a few close ones ...

44 to a 1000 with 60's technology.

Your scheme of using the moon as a spaceship means you've been watching to much TV than physics.

Its not a pulse rocket, thats the point.

I doubt we'll be going anywhere other than near-orbit for the foreseeable future as lifting capability is the problem. The most feasible approach(if you can call it that) is a 'space elevator or lift and we'll need an asteroid and a significant advance in materials technology and something like the pulse-propulsion system to get there.
p.s.
A fun read is "Our spaceship moon" by two Russians who propose it already is.

[chaz wyman]

...
the 75 to 8o thousand years is with our current speeds to our nearest star,
we only have a few close ones ...

44 to a 1000 with 60's technology.

Dream on.
With fanciful technology that has never even be tried on any scale.

You are promoting a spacecraft driven by a series of nuclear bombs, whose impact was to have been absorbed by a massive spring! It's bordering on completely ridiculous.
Sounds a bit Heath Robinson to me.

[Arising_uk]

You are promoting a spacecraft driven by a series of nuclear bombs, whose impact was to have been absorbed by a massive spring! It's bordering on completely ridiculous.
Sounds a bit Heath Robinson to me.

not so, it was designed, costed(about one years US GDP at that time) and pretty feasible, the physicists were already planning on taking their families for a trip, other than Dyson who's son says he still bears a 'grudge' about that. What apparently killed it was the nuclear testing treaty. Rumour has it that the US has recently reclassified the material, hmm...

[chaz wyman]

You are promoting a spacecraft driven by a series of nuclear bombs, whose impact was to have been absorbed by a massive spring! It's bordering on completely ridiculous.
Sounds a bit Heath Robinson to me.

not so, it was designed, costed(about one years US GDP at that time) and pretty feasible, the physicists were already planning on taking their families for a trip, other than Dyson who's son says he still bears a 'grudge' about that. What apparently killed it was the nuclear testing treaty. Rumour has it that the US has recently reclassified the material, hmm...

Yes. exactly as I said. A fanciful technology that has never even be tried on any scale.

You are just making a fool of yourself.

[Arising_uk]

Yes. exactly as I said. A fanciful technology that has never even be tried on any scale.

You are just making a fool of yourself.

The principle worked using very small models and conventional explosives. Given that Dyson and others had the physics and engineering down and were convinced of its feasibility(and they were some of the best engineers in the world) and it was only the partial-test ban that stopped them and that the US has reclassified the materials I'll leave such a judgement for a while.