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The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:03 pm
by Omniscientone
I feel this is a metaphysical question, but maybe it's not. Either way I'm posting it here.
Einstein was once asked if he could go forward to the future and find out one thing about the Universe what would it be? He responded that he'd go forward and find out if it was Friendly or not. Is the universe intrinsically good? Robert Fuller argued that our very existence means the universe is a good place. Or as Carl Sagan said is it "indifferent"? Or maybe it's an intrinsically evil place? I remember Tyson once saying something like he finds it hard to believe in a benevolent creator being when he sees all the stuff that "wants to kills us".
So what do you believe? Is the Universe Intrinsically good, evil, or neither?
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:53 pm
by tillingborn
Omniscientone wrote:I feel this is a metaphysical question, but maybe it's not.
Well, your the omniscient one, you tell us.
I think it's a bit of an odd question; it would be a surprise to discover that the universe had any intrinsic moral values. It's a heck of a trip being part of it, which I suppose is good, but I'm not sure that's what you're asking.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:55 pm
by thedoc
If you will excuse a play on words, It is a good thing that there is a Universe, otherwise there wouldn't be us. A scientist once stated that "Out There" it is cold and impersonal, but it is the 'Machine' that has made us. We are all made of 'Star Dust'.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:27 pm
by chaz wyman
Omniscientone wrote:I feel this is a metaphysical question, but maybe it's not. Either way I'm posting it here.
Einstein was once asked if he could go forward to the future and find out one thing about the Universe what would it be? He responded that he'd go forward and find out if it was Friendly or not. Is the universe intrinsically good? Robert Fuller argued that our very existence means the universe is a good place. Or as Carl Sagan said is it "indifferent"? Or maybe it's an intrinsically evil place? I remember Tyson once saying something like he finds it hard to believe in a benevolent creator being when he sees all the stuff that "wants to kills us".
So what do you believe? Is the Universe Intrinsically good, evil, or neither?
These are moral categories which are generated by human culture.
The universe would be here whether or not we were here; it was here before there were humans in existence and thus was here before there was good and bad.
For the universe to be good or evil it would have to be intentional - it seems it is not.
If you take the line; good for humans; or evil for humans, rather than intentionally so, then you are left with the simple fact about life. Life is a sexually transmitted disease that is always fatal.
Goodness seems to emanate from our own efforts.
Can you cite your Einstein reference? Given what Einstein I have read, this comment seems like a joke.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:12 am
by Bernard
I think its a good question, as I, for one, believe the universe to be a sentient conscious being - too vast in its awareness for us to comprehend in any rational way, but aware indeed! So like us it is neither good or bad but facing the same basic challenges of existence that we do, the primary one being that of death. Being in an environment which harbors great predatorship and sorrow is only an argument against life if one has an argument against death. If one has no problem with death then hostility can be taken merely as a minor detail that gets quickly swamped over by the majesty and beauty of life and being alive.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:14 am
by chaz wyman
Bernard wrote:I think its a good question, as I, for one, believe the universe to be a sentient conscious being - too vast in its awareness for us to comprehend in any rational way, but aware indeed! So like us it is neither good or bad but facing the same basic challenges of existence that we do, the primary one being that of death. Being in an environment which harbors great predatorship and sorrow is only an argument against life if one has an argument against death. If one has no problem with death then hostility can be taken merely as a minor detail that gets quickly swamped over by the majesty and beauty of life and being alive.
Is the universe good because whatever the universe does is good?
Or is it that the universe does good things, and behaves in a good way?
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:52 am
by Bernard
Its the question of whether life is good as to whether or not any living thing is good. Though as soon as we say life is good and death is bad, we set up the most basic of all morality structures, and life and death start becoming things of the rational mind only. If we don't give any positive or negative values to life and death we are walking through the door of truth, but it leaves us without the first basic value that we need to gain some sort of structure in our thoughts, hence we are then without rationality, which we clearly need. So we need to give value to life and death but not to the point that rationality is all we end up with.
And yes, I'm saying also with the above that rationality derives from value judgments.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:59 am
by reasonvemotion
We are all made of 'Star Dust'.
Huh? that seems more incredible than God made the world in seven days.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:11 am
by Bernard
reasonvemotion wrote:We are all made of 'Star Dust'.
Huh? that seems more incredible than God made the world in seven days.
Its a fact, but lacking in emotional intelligence. This and Einstein's question of the future are a little under nourished...
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:26 am
by Omniscientone
chaz wyman wrote:
Can you cite your Einstein reference? Given what Einstein I have read, this comment seems like a joke.
My apologies, I read it in a Psychology Today article and assumed it was true. Wikiquote, however, has it listed under "mis-attributed"
The most important decision we can make is whether this is a friendly or hostile universe. From that one decision all others spring.
Multiple variations of this quote can be found, but the earliest one on google books which uses the phrase "friendly or hostile" and attributes it to Einstein is The Complete Idiot's Guide to Spiritual Healing by Susan Gregg (2000), p. 5, and this book gives no source for the quote.
A variant is found in Irving Oyle's The New American Medicine Show (1979) on p. 163, where Oyle writes: 'There is a story about Albert Einstein's view of human existence. Asked to pose the most vital question facing humanity, he replied, "Is the universe friendly?"' This variant is repeated in a number of books from the 1980s and 90s, so it probably pre-dates the "friendly or hostile" version. And the idea that the most important question we can ask is "Is the universe friendly?" dates back much earlier than the attribution to Einstein, for example in Emil Carl Wilm's 1912 book The Problem of Religion he includes the following footnote on p. 114: 'A friend proposed to the late F. W. H. Myers the following question: "What is the thing which above all others you would like to know? If you could ask the Sphinx one question, and only one, what would the question be?" After a moment's silence Myers replied: "I think it would be this: Is the universe friendly?"'
Question still stands though.
Edit: aww man no spoiler tags.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:04 am
by thedoc
reasonvemotion wrote:We are all made of 'Star Dust'.
Huh? that seems more incredible than God made the world in seven days.
Every atom in your body, my body, and everyone else, the whole Earth, and all the heavy elements in the Solar system beyond hydrogen and a little helium was once inside a star that went nova and blew up. We are all made of elements that were created inside a star. That star must have been big enough to go nova and blow up spreading those elements back out into the universe. This dust then coalesced into our solar system, as other dust has done for countless other solar systems in the Universe.
Genesis is mundane compaired to reality.
However God is vindicated if you accept that God is responsable for creating the Universe and all the incredible diversity and wonder in it.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:50 am
by Bernard
That makes God like awfully like Einstein. Do you see the projection - how you apprehend the universe is limited by the way you primarily perceive it. Life is not necessarily dominantly physical at all. Its a small thread in an infinite web for all we know.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:46 am
by thedoc
Yes, life on Earth is an infinitesimal speck in the enormity of the Universe, but it is all we know and therefore very important to us. Perhaps the discovery of life elsewere will put us in our place, but till then life on Earth is pre-eminent to humanity. I would be as happy as anyone to hear of the discovery of live somewhere else in the universe, but you need to show me, not just speculate on wishful thinking.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:00 am
by SecularCauses
reasonvemotion wrote:We are all made of 'Star Dust'.
Huh? that seems more incredible than God made the world in seven days.
What's the matter? Your buybull never explained to you that it took the universe 10 billion years for stars to fuse the material to make human life and explode the contents throughout the universe? Oh, that's right, you assume some magically being popped into existence, created Adam, then made an Eve, and off we went. You better watch out, it's those damn Jews and their science that is exposing your buybull for the nonsense it is. Better kill off the Jews before they expose your religion for the total scam it is.
Re: The Universe: And its alignment
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:34 am
by Bernard
thedoc wrote:Yes, life on Earth is an infinitesimal speck in the enormity of the Universe, but it is all we know and therefore very important to us. Perhaps the discovery of life elsewere will put us in our place, but till then life on Earth is pre-eminent to humanity. I would be as happy as anyone to hear of the discovery of live somewhere else in the universe, but you need to show me, not just speculate on wishful thinking.
But there is no proof like what you want that the earth is alive and far more conscious than us.