Philosophy Now Forum

Wootah wrote:You should meet GreatestIAm. I am sure you will actually.

The Jesus Head wrote:Humans are drawn into life and its project.
They believe that life extends forever even into death.
Most Humans cannot envisage a death without
a human extension.
But there is no relation between life and death.
Life is a self contained episode with no meaning.

This is false. Life supplies any and all meaning that there is. If there were no meaning in life then your words would be meaningless.
That being the case why are you presenting these words to us on the Forum?

There is no more meaning for humans in death
than there is for a dragon- fly.

That is contradiction. If life has no meaning then death can have none, because there is no death with out the life to precede it.


The difference is that humanity has "meaning" in life
whilst the dragon-fly does not.

And thus you contradict yourself again.

Human existence is a living project only.
Humans believe life is short and death is long.
But death has no duration .
The person who died yesterday
is no less dead than the person who died 1000 years ago.

And yet the 1000 years is a duration, Thus you are confounding your own words by your own example.

Neither has entered any state outside a human constitution.
Life is a great folly. Life should be lived with the minimal
amount of engagement.

Why? It is the engagement that makes life what it is. Without it you may as well be dead.

But humanity is obsessed with humanity and all its little foibles.

Non sequitur.

Humans are like all other animals absorbed in what it is to be that animal.

And with that final contradiction you end.

The Jesus Head wrote:

Wootah wrote:You should meet GreatestIAm. I am sure you will actually.

If you have something to say of value say it extensively ;otherwise people may think you are an ego posture.

This is false. Life supplies any and all meaning that there is.

If there were no meaning in life then your words would be meaningless.

That being the case why are you presenting these words to us on the Forum?

That is contradiction. If life has no meaning then death can have none,

...because there is no death with out the life to precede it.

And thus you contradict yourself again.

And yet the 1000 years is a duration, Thus you are confounding your own words by your own example.

Why? It is the engagement that makes life what it is. Without it you may as well be dead.

Non sequitur.

And with that final contradiction you end.

The Jesus Head wrote:Humans are drawn into life and its project.
They believe that life extends forever even into death.
Most Humans cannot envisage a death without
a human extension.
But there is no relation between life and death.
Life is a self contained episode with no meaning.

This is false. Life supplies any and all meaning that there is.

Life supplies no meaning. meaning is created by humans.

Obviously, and as we are alive; we define what is alive and have sole knowing use of the concept then it is the life that we are that defines meaning, defines life.

If there were no meaning in life then your words would be meaningless.

Life has no intrinsic purpose .Words have meaning.

But humans make the meaning, therefore there is as much meaning in life as we wish. And you disappear in a puff of logic.
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That being the case why are you presenting these words to us on the Forum?

Because humans cannot be other than human.


Yes, those that define life and its meaning.

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There is no more meaning for humans in death
than there is for a dragon- fly.

That is contradiction. If life has no meaning then death can have none,

Death is death for the human and the dragonfly .
Meaning may be applied subjectively but the idea is that death
does not in fact mean anything beyond what it is which is the termination of the life.

In other words you are talking bollocks.

Not only do humans give meaning to life they also give meaning to death.
Dragonflies do not use meaning. Anything that gives their life meaning, and their death for that matter, is conceived and defined by humans.


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...because there is no death with out the life to precede it.

You are merely describing a cycle and thus losing the essence of the idea.

Not in any sense. Death is not whilst there is life and life is not whilst there is death.
Life is the unity of the history of the individual and its conclusion is death.
Without the life there is no death.
This is not a cycle in any sense. You are confused.

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The difference is that humanity has "meaning" in life
whilst the dragon-fly does not.

And thus you contradict yourself again.

There is no contradiction to be found in the idea that
humans attach a "meaning" to things and insects do not.

But you already stated that life had no meaning. That is a direct contradiction of what you now say.
Do try and keep up!
------------------------------------------------------------
Human existence is a living project only.
Humans believe life is short and death is long.
But death has no duration .
The person who died yesterday
is no less dead than the person who died 1000 years ago.

And yet the 1000 years is a duration, Thus you are confounding your own words by your own example.

You are confounded by the example.
You are confounded by your own example. You need help.
----------------------------------------------------

Neither has entered any state outside a human constitution.
Life is a great folly. Life should be lived with the minimal
amount of engagement.

Why? It is the engagement that makes life what it is. Without it you may as well be dead.

And when you are dead what will you value of your engagement?

That's not relevant - I'm not dead yet, and won't know when I am, so it is not important.


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But humanity is obsessed with humanity and all its little foibles.

Non sequitur.

I am amused.

Ho fucking Ho!
Do you even know what it means?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Humans are like all other animals absorbed in what it is to be that animal.

And with that final contradiction you end.

I am very disappointed with the quality of your mind.

But humans make the meaning, therefore there is as much meaning in life as we wish. And you disappear in a puff of logic.

If life has no meaning then death can have none,

In other words you are talking bollocks.

Death is not whilst there is life and life is not whilst there is death.
Life is the unity of the history of the individual and its conclusion is death.
Without the life there is no death.
This is not a cycle in any sense. You are confused.

But you already stated that life had no meaning. That is a direct contradiction of what you now say.
Do try and keep up!

Why? It is the engagement that makes life what it is. Without it you may as well be dead.

That's not relevant - I'm not dead yet, and won't know when I am, so it is not important.

And with that final contradiction you end.

Pearls before swine.
I'm way ahead of you buddy.

The Jesus Head wrote:

But humans make the meaning, therefore there is as much meaning in life as we wish. And you disappear in a puff of logic.

What if the meaning that humans make is an illusion?

What is the computer you are typing on is an illusion - so what?

If life has no meaning then death can have none,

That is what I am saying.

No that is not what you are saying - that's the whole point. Life has meaning. If meaning has meaning, and we are free to make meaning as we will. By saying life has no meaning you are challenging the notion of meaning itself, as life is the basis of ALL meaning. You are trying to quantify the meaning of death when you have already nullified any meaning for life. But as there is no death without life then you are in a state of contradiction.

In other words you are talking bollocks.

Are you borrowing from Plato here?
No he talked all the bollocks that it is possible to talk.

Death is not whilst there is life and life is not whilst there is death.
Life is the unity of the history of the individual and its conclusion is death.
Without the life there is no death.
This is not a cycle in any sense. You are confused.

Of course without life there is no death.
But that is a pointless observation.

Not if you keep trying to quantify death's meaning, even in negative terms.
If you have no meaning in life then you don't even get to ask the meaning of death.
If the observation is pointless, then that is your problem.
The idea is that life has no purpose or destiny.
I disagree. My life has plenty of meaning thanks.
Why are you still alive?
Why are you typing this into a computer?
Every key press is a contradiction of your statement.
------------------------------------------------------------
The difference is that humanity has "meaning" in life
whilst the dragon-fly does not.

But you already stated that life had no meaning. That is a direct contradiction of what you now say.
Do try and keep up!

Life has no purpose . Humans attempt to attach meaning to it
since they cannot face the idea that they are no better than
a monkey. They invent a soul and a magical kingdom beyond the grave.

1) I am better than any monkey, so are you.
2) I don't need a magical kingdom to give my life meaning.
3) I don't need a concept of 'soul' to give my life meaning.
4) I have many purposes - I do not have to live forever for that to be true.


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Why? It is the engagement that makes life what it is. Without it you may as well be dead.

And when you are dead what will you value of your engagement?

That's not relevant - I'm not dead yet, and won't know when I am, so it is not important.

So you agree that life is a living project separated from death?

No, my life is the whole of my personal history. I will not know death. I have no interest in it.
I will never BE dead. Being is what death is not.
I will only ever know life.
That is enough.
You are suffering from the endemic assumption that life is eternal. Your view is based on thousands of years of a world view that you are now railing against; the immortality of the individual through salvation via a deity. Until you fully eject this set of assumptions you will be trapped in this negative dialectic. You are trapped by saying what life is not, what eternity is not and what god, and your spirit is not. You need to transcend this view and say what your life IS.


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And with that final contradiction you end.

I am very disappointed with the quality of your mind.

Pearls before swine.
I'm way ahead of you buddy.

So far the evidence would suggest otherwise.

No that is not what you are saying - that's the whole point. Life has meaning. If meaning has meaning, and we are free to make meaning as we will. By saying life has no meaning you are challenging the notion of meaning itself, as life is the basis of ALL meaning. You are trying to quantify the meaning of death when you have already nullified any meaning for life. But as there is no death without life then you are in a state of contradiction.

No he talked all the bollocks that it is possible to talk.

If you have no meaning in life then you don't even get to ask the meaning of death.

I disagree. My life has plenty of meaning thanks.
Why are you still alive?
Why are you typing this into a computer?
Every key press is a contradiction of your statement.

I am better than any monkey, so are you.

I don't need a magical kingdom to give my life meaning.

I don't need a concept of 'soul' to give my life meaning.

I have many purposes - I do not have to live forever for that to be true.

No, my life is the whole of my personal history. I will not know death. I have no interest in it.
I will never BE dead. Being is what death is not.
I will only ever know life.
That is enough.

You are suffering from the endemic assumption that life is eternal.

Your view is based on thousands of years of a world view that you are now railing against; the immortality of the individual through salvation via a deity.

Until you fully eject this set of assumptions you will be trapped in this negative dialectic. You are trapped by saying what life is not,

what eternity is not and what god, and your spirit is not. You need to transcend this view and say what your life IS.

You just need to think things through a little more and come out the other side of your atheism.

The Jesus Head wrote:Humans are drawn into life and its project.
They believe that life extends forever even into death.
Most Humans cannot envisage a death without
a human extension.
But there is no relation between life and death.
Life is a self contained episode with no meaning.
There is no more meaning for humans in death
than there is for a dragon- fly.
The difference is that humanity has "meaning" in life
whilst the dragon-fly does not.
Human existence is a living project only.
Humans believe life is short and death is long.
But death has no duration .
The person who died yesterday
is no less dead than the person who died 1000 years ago.
Neither has entered any state outside a human constitution.
Life is a great folly. Life should be lived with the minimal
amount of engagement.
But humanity is obsessed with humanity and all its little foibles.
Humans are like all other animals absorbed in what it is to be that animal.

The Jesus Head wrote:

No that is not what you are saying - that's the whole point. Life has meaning. If meaning has meaning, and we are free to make meaning as we will. By saying life has no meaning you are challenging the notion of meaning itself, as life is the basis of ALL meaning. You are trying to quantify the meaning of death when you have already nullified any meaning for life. But as there is no death without life then you are in a state of contradiction.

Let us dispense with the word "meaning" then since you have conceded that meaning
is a possible illusion and man-made construct.
Instead we should use the term "reason" in the sense that the life of
the human has no more reason than the life of the dragonfly .

Then you have exactly the same problem - you are just using a different "illusion", as you put it.


Is it not probable that you simply do not understand Plato ?

Nope!
------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have no meaning in life then you don't even get to ask the meaning of death.

So you now agree that if life is without purpose then so is death which is what I am saying.

No. Meaning is given by humans, as you say, therefore life and death are issues that can have as much meaning as we feel appropriate. If there were no humans then meaning would have no meaning.
I puzzled why you thin there is any problem here.

I disagree. My life has plenty of meaning thanks.
Why are you still alive?
Why are you typing this into a computer?
Every key press is a contradiction of your statement.

You have missed my earlier point that humans cannot be
other than human and participate in the pointless frantic
occupation of life.

You are saying this as if it were a problem. Please state the problem!

I am better than any monkey, so are you.

If humans are better than monkeys then why do they slaughter
each other for ideas about what God is - something that a monkey does not do.

Because they can. They can also kill each other for other reasons too. Monkeys just don't have the fire-power.
If they did they would probably act in the same way. What is the problem?
Humans are also capable of saying that this killing is wrong or they would rather have it otherwise. That makes them better than monkeys too.

I don't need a magical kingdom to give my life meaning.

If you invent meaning then meaning is "magical."
Rubbish.

I don't need a concept of 'soul' to give my life meaning.

Again you confirm my main idea that meaning is "given" .

No meaning is not given, it is taken. I take meaning from the world around me. I do not rely on the word of god or the word of a person in authority to tell me what stuff means.

I have many purposes - I do not have to live forever for that to be true.

So you agree with me that when you die your "purpose" also dies?

My purpose is part of who I am, yes. For me that will not die. It will only die for others around me.
I shall never know death.


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No, my life is the whole of my personal history. I will not know death. I have no interest in it.
I will never BE dead. Being is what death is not.
I will only ever know life.
That is enough.

So you confirm my main idea that humans are not hard wired to
incorporate death in life and live as if they will live forever?

What the fuck are you talking about?[
Why do you want to live forever?/color]

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You are suffering from the endemic assumption that life is eternal.

No one here,other than yourself, would draw the conclusion
that I have an assumption or argue that life is eternal.
No fool read what I actually said.
You are railing against that assumption - this is the position from which you draw your suffering.

The considered reader would draw the conclusion that I claim humans
lead their lives as if they will go on forever. This is
something you believe also ,hence your quote, :"I will never BE dead."

READ MY WORDS. It is impossible to BE dead. Being is the antithesis of death. Being is that which death is not.
I can never experience my own inevitable and unavoidable death. This being the case I cannot know death. So it is of no importance to me.
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Your view is based on thousands of years of a world view that you are now railing against; the immortality of the individual through salvation via a deity.

So you agree that the world view is the validity of salvation?

No, of course not. I've long rejected salvation, god, the soul or any of those pathetic concepts.
You really need to read more carefully.

Until you fully eject this set of assumptions you will be trapped in this negative dialectic. You are trapped by saying what life is not,

Would you not agree that to say what life "is not" is the same as saying what "life is?"
Not at all. A dog is not a cat says nothing important about a dog.
And since you say that your life is this and your life is that , then, you are yourself trapped?

How?

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what eternity is not and what god, and your spirit is not. You need to transcend this view and say what your life IS.

I think most people here ,who have read what I have said ,would agree that I have stated
what I believe life IS.

You have said nothing. All you have said is negative.
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You just need to think things through a little more and come out the other side of your atheism.

But you have said death has no meaning. Does this not make you an Atheist ?
Obviously. So what? Atheism is contentless. It is nothing more than a marker for theists to point to me as a person that does not accept their view of God.
and if so, are you not plainly on one side of the argument? The argument that
humans have no destiny beyond the function of life?

chaz wyman wrote:

The Jesus Head wrote:

No that is not what you are saying - that's the whole point. Life has meaning. If meaning has meaning, and we are free to make meaning as we will. By saying life has no meaning you are challenging the notion of meaning itself, as life is the basis of ALL meaning. You are trying to quantify the meaning of death when you have already nullified any meaning for life. But as there is no death without life then you are in a state of contradiction.

Let us dispense with the word "meaning" then since you have conceded that meaning
is a possible illusion and man-made construct.
Instead we should use the term "reason" in the sense that the life of
the human has no more reason than the life of the dragonfly .

Then you have exactly the same problem - you are just using a different "illusion", as you put it.


Is it not probable that you simply do not understand Plato ?

Nope!
------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have no meaning in life then you don't even get to ask the meaning of death.

So you now agree that if life is without purpose then so is death which is what I am saying.

No. Meaning is given by humans, as you say, therefore life and death are issues that can have as much meaning as we feel appropriate. If there were no humans then meaning would have no meaning.
I puzzled why you thin there is any problem here.

I disagree. My life has plenty of meaning thanks.
Why are you still alive?
Why are you typing this into a computer?
Every key press is a contradiction of your statement.

You have missed my earlier point that humans cannot be
other than human and participate in the pointless frantic
occupation of life.

You are saying this as if it were a problem. Please state the problem!



Would you not agree that to say what life "is not" is the same as saying what "life is?"

Not at all. A dog is not a cat says nothing important about a dog.

Yes it does ;it says the dog cannot exit the house via a cat trap.
The dog needs to be taken for a walk and the cat doesn't
etc etc etc.

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what eternity is not and what god, and your spirit is not. You need to transcend this view and say what your life IS.

I think most people here ,who have read what I have said ,would agree that I have stated
what I believe life IS.

You have said nothing. All you have said is negative.

I have said nothing ? You are a silly little fellow aren't you ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean by destiny?
And what is the function of life?
We pursue our purposes and act as we will.

chaz wyman wrote:

The Jesus Head wrote:

No that is not what you are saying - that's the whole point. Life has meaning. If meaning has meaning, and we are free to make meaning as we will. By saying life has no meaning you are challenging the notion of meaning itself, as life is the basis of ALL meaning. You are trying to quantify the meaning of death when you have already nullified any meaning for life. But as there is no death without life then you are in a state of contradiction.

Let us dispense with the word "meaning" then since you have conceded that meaning
is a possible illusion and man-made construct.
Instead we should use the term "reason" in the sense that the life of
the human has no more reason than the life of the dragonfly .

Then you have exactly the same problem - you are just using a different "illusion", as you put it.


Is it not probable that you simply do not understand Plato ?

Nope!
------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have no meaning in life then you don't even get to ask the meaning of death.

So you now agree that if life is without purpose then so is death which is what I am saying.

No. Meaning is given by humans, as you say, therefore life and death are issues that can have as much meaning as we feel appropriate. If there were no humans then meaning would have no meaning.
I puzzled why you thin there is any problem here.

I disagree. My life has plenty of meaning thanks.
Why are you still alive?
Why are you typing this into a computer?
Every key press is a contradiction of your statement.

You have missed my earlier point that humans cannot be
other than human and participate in the pointless frantic
occupation of life.

You are saying this as if it were a problem. Please state the problem!



Would you not agree that to say what life "is not" is the same as saying what "life is?"

Not at all. A dog is not a cat says nothing important about a dog.

Yes it does ;it says the dog cannot exit the house via a cat trap.
The dog needs to be taken for a walk and the cat doesn't
etc etc etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what eternity is not and what god, and your spirit is not. You need to transcend this view and say what your life IS.

I think most people here ,who have read what I have said ,would agree that I have stated
what I believe life IS.

You have said nothing. All you have said is negative.

I have said nothing ? You are a silly little fellow aren't you ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean by destiny?
And what is the function of life?
We pursue our purposes and act as we will.