Philosophy Now Forum

I do not want to dismiss religion based on personal experience, or embrace it on that basis, either.
My formal schooling was entirely secular because I attended city schools as a kid. History or "social studies" classes ignored religions entirely. I learned nothing of religion from school.
My father is Jewish and worked two jobs. His Jewish parents raised me until I was about eight, and they were very loving, sweet people. My Jewish family was poor, yet filled their home with books and magazines and discussions. They cherished children.
My mother was Christian; she was an abusive parent - just plain mean. After my grandparents died, I went back to her home. I detested Christianity throughout youth.
Curiosity about faith and God bolstered by avid reading at the library brought me out of the fogs of prejudice and bias leftover from childhood.
I chose to embrace Judaism and convert formally - as an adult in my twenties.

I was raised in a devout Roman Catholic family - Mass each Sunday, a weekly block rosary (we played for the conversion of Russia), meatless Fridays, frequent Confessions, etc.

I attended Catholic Schools through high school (grad. in 1960). The schools were run by Jesuits, so the education was Catholic/classical - very intellectually oriented. Latin was required. Every nstudent was urged to try college at least for one quarter, an economical state college being located four blocks away (provided that we immediately checked in at the Newman Center asap - I checked in and never returned) If you have ever seen an old black and white movie with Catholic scenes ( like "The Bells of St. Marys" with Bing Crosby and Ingred Bergman) you will experience the culture in which I was raised.

I contend that the philosopher who, in principle dismisses religion, is intellectually and aesthetically impoverished. To such folks, I have issued a challenge: Pick an intellectually oriented religious author (C.S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, Simone Weil, for example) and commit to to a project of reading all of their books over a long term and with an open mind. (Attention: Richard Baron and Psychonaut) I gently issued this challenge to a Marxist professor of philosophy ( who was very troubled after the Soviet Empire collapsed). I suggested some writers and assured him that he need not fear becoming dogmatic and a convert. He did some reading and a few years later he called and wanted the names of the Papal encyclicals that dealt with economics. It was obvious that he had become open minded relative to religous thought. A whole new world of experience was now open to him.

Finally, I once met an atheist professor of philosophy who told me that he had an aesthetic appreciation for that Catholic Church - and that he never missed the Midnight Mass at the cathedral on Christmas Eve.

I have often wondered if the ordinary person who was raised in a secular world was incapable of enjoying religious art and music? The atheist professor obviously was not. (but he was not ordinary - he was supremely open minded)

What do you think?

I hope that I have not offended anyone.

tbieter wrote: Finally, I once met an atheist professor of philosophy who told me that he had an aesthetic appreciation for that Catholic Church - and that he never missed the Midnight Mass at the cathedral on Christmas Eve.

Me too, but not every year. I also recommend the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches for the aesthetic appeal of their services. And the Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics. And the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. (All available in London, in case any locals wish to follow the same aesthetic pursuit.)

tbieter wrote: I contend that the philosopher who, in principle dismisses religion, is intellectually and aesthetically impoverished. To such folks, I have issued a challenge: Pick an intellectually oriented religious author (C.S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, Simone Weil, for example) and commit to to a project of reading all of their books over a long term and with an open mind. (Attention: Richard Baron and Psychonaut) ... I hope that I have not offended anyone.

No offence taken here. Indeed I think that there is a real place for spiritual appreciation. The challenge (for the likes of me) is to find a place for that in a world-view which includes no spirits, without removing its special quality by placing it in the same bag as the appreciation of poetry or of music.

seculars have a lot to offer and I am a proud christian, I am trying to take dawkins complaints seriously and investigate bioscience from an untrained amateurs perspective ie pharmacologial argments, drugs and behavour lectures.
my family is secular as hell but I am a Christian belonging to a great if horribly flawed Church and shamelsssly intellectual in the process.

"Christianity is also a revolt, that is, as soon as it is set forth in all its truth people will revolt against it." -- Soren Kierkegaard --

If one's education assumes a straight, no-chaser secular line AND one does not question it, then how might one overcome assumptions about religion and spirituality?

Hi RA,
I'd like to vote but I'm unsure if the schooling I had was religious as, yes, it had a christian morning assembly where a couple of hymns were croaked to and a homily was given and every christmas a nativity play was put on, but religious instruction was not singular, i.e. comparative religion was taught and that was all. This appears very different from the idea of a religious school, or schooling, where many subjects are taught within the ethos of the religion and religious study is the study of that religion, e.g. faith-based schooling.
a_uk

I shamelessly follow uber intellectual path. I also with God's help seek to know his love and grace in my intellectual studies.
in theory I can without care embrace anti-god campaigners like Voltaire, Nietches, dawkins without it clashing with my intellectual goals which extend to PhD ing one day and working on active lively theory and philosophy now.
I adore and have time for the Secular which is unerringly precious, there are things in church which cause me gross problems meaning the Secular has a bigger role than it might otherwise would.
Therefore with Research draft bid I asked for prayer (chaplaincies for prayer if thats how you wish to go) withe future plans (prayer) whoops of praise if I get hold of particular books or Paper despite being forced to be in an intellectual desert I would rather not inhabit and would change tommoroww. take it or leave it or ponder it doubt it etc

current read Thomas more utopia small volumes to bump up figures and self esteem
current academic project the Research draft bid which is putting me right on the edge.

amateurphilosophynerd, you sound positively sociopathic to be able to embrace god and dawkins with equal enthusiasm. i recommend politics for phd. mark.

AUK's pearls of wisdom:

This appears very different from the idea of a religious school, or schooling, where many subjects are taught within the ethos of the religion and religious study is the study of that religion, e.g. faith-based schooling.

Smart stuff, AUK, smart stuff. You've generated some grist for the mental mill, thanks!

Hello everyone,

I was raised by my mother and even though she was a very loving mother, she was not a religious person in the going to church type of way and spiritual discussions of the ordinary kind were not part of my upbringing. I would like to add however that loving one's children and bringing them up to do right and act with integrity is in itself religious even if it is not in the going to church sense. However I was baptized as a Catholic when I was nine years old and attended Catholic school for twelve years. I am not what one would call a faithful Christian but I am a believing Christian, Jew and Buddhist in the sense of believing that GOD is Absolute Reality and Love is His Being.

Jack

I went to a secular school, as are all schools in the UK.

In Primary School we sang hymns and said prayers in assemblies.
I asked to be exempted, but you could only be exempted if your parents were the ones who asked, and they wouldn't. They were concerned that this would make me stand out as different.

In Secondary School there were, again, prayers in assemblies, but these were much less frequent.

Religious Studies was a minor non-examined subject in which a variety of world faiths were explored, and which I excelled in. There was no option at my school for taking a qualification in this subject, though I think that there may be a GCSE available for schools to opt into.

I voted secular school on the poll.

Regarding my home-life I also voted secular. My mother is a staunch atheist, though she seems to have a certain respect for the Catholic church, and definately for the nuns who taught her in her school when she was younger.
My father is non-religious, in the sense that he doesn't believe in what some book tells him just because it also tells him to believe in it and he doesn't believe what some man in a funny hat tells him. He was thrown out of his local Methodist church when he was younger, because he was caught drinking in the local pub, since then he hasn't had need of someone telling him what to believe.
He does have an open-minded belief system which includes beliefs on topics traditionally under the purview of leather-bound books and funny-hat-men, and does believe in a God of sorts. I tend to call this Spiritual, as opposed to Religious.

I am unsure whether you would think of either of these as being Secular or Religious. Any thoughts?

Psychonaut wrote:I went to a secular school, as are all schools in the UK.

Sadly not. Something like a quarter of taxpayer-funded schools are run by religious groups, mainly the Church of England, although there are also Catholic, Muslim and other religious schools. And then there are private schools run by religious groups.

And even sadder thanks to New Labours[sic] abandonment and mis-management of the comprehensive system we will be seeing the increase in tax-funded religiously run schools and with the 'New Tory' party ideas of parent-run schools we may also be seeing an increase in private religious schools. God help us!
a_uk

Isn't it strange when you know something full well, but somehow manage to blunder vastly and completely forget it for a short time?
Within the same post I even mentioned my mother having gone to a convent school *sigh*

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