Philosophy Now Forum

Kathleen O’Dwyer asks if we can learn how to love, with Erich Fromm and friends.

http://philosophynow.org/issues/85/Is_Love_An_Art

NO!

Love is more bullshit than art. But then, art itself can be bullshit.

And I find it bullshit that we have to have a PN issue on love.

This issue, 85, marks the 20th anniversary of Philosophy Now. You would think, then, it would be about reminiscing. Instead it is about love, a markably vague, vague subject.

Learning how to love is easy...it's learning how to love for a lifetime that is hard. Sometimes there are consequences for this love. The lucky ones get to grow old with each other...and the more they age the more they know that death is looming...but which one first? And how much suffering will accumulate before. Not only the suffering of the dying but also the suffering of the one watching the other die.

I used to think it would be terribly frightening being the last surviving cojoined twin. Knowing that death is a breath away and mourning the loss of your sibling at the same time. But now I think it is harder to be the caregiver to a love one and helplessly watch them suffer without being able to have the pain end for yourself as well. No one mentions the horrible part of love for a lifetime. It is the same with having children. No one mentions that you will be a parent for a lifetime.

Love is too much responsibility. Too much pain. Too much.

When I was young I hated the shallowness of infatuation. Moving from one lover to the next... but now I am beginning to see the beauty in it. I wonder if I could learn to love that way? Is that also an art?

the best lovers are the worst tennis players...

-Imp

Is Love An Art?

(I don’t care for the subject but for the sake of philosophy I will give it a go.)

That question asks whether one has to have a special talent to love or be loved. I think you either have the talent and appreciation for it or you don’t. But I don’t think love should be approached in this way. It is a natural phenomenon. It is also nurtured. If it happens it happens. If one gets too artistic about it one can come across as being kind of phony or like someone is trying to hard. And that can scare people off. I know it would scare me off if someone was to artsy about it with me. There are people, though, who are taken in by artsy, crafty lovers.

Picasso was an artist and a lover. But was he an artist in his love making? Well, he sure had a number of lovers and wives. So he had some kind of talent for attracting women. Maybe, though, it had nothing to do with love but with a physical attraction or chemistry.

I think women fell in love with Picasso more than he fell in love with them. And I think he used and abused their love for him. Rather, he was an artist in the way he could hold their attention and love without reciprocating or being sincere about it. He was a great user and manipulator. He probably had a charm about him that melted women.

Those who never find love or aren’t successful in love might think that it is an art. They may ask themselves, Am I deficient in this art? Why, then, don’t I have a partner in love? They may think it requires a special talent that they don’t have. Perhaps, though, it is that these people are trying to hard or are too intense about it. That can scare people off.

Being an artist at something implies the practicing of a craft. Is this what love is about, a craft like painting? One might require numerous canvases to hone a craft like painting. Similarly, if that is the case, one might require many experiences with lovers in order to hone the art of love. For the artist who is developing his or her skills in the art of love it probably would be a more satisfying experience for them than for the ones who are being practiced on because it time they get shunned aside.

Some people have a gift for attracting lovers. They are great at that but maybe not so good at keeping or maintaining a relationship. I think, though, there is more art involved in maintaining a relationship than in love itself.

Then there is the art of playing hard to get. One has to play it just right so as not to lose the love interest, maintaining both an allure yet a distance.

There is also the idea of being in love. Some people can’t be without love. They need romantic love to feel whole. Then there are those who avoid love. They are afraid of love because they think they might lose it and losing is painful. I would call those people ‘artful dodgers’.

Hi Spike,

I like what you have to say and that you are going out of your comfort zone and discussing a topic you don't prefer.

S:That question asks whether one has to have a special talent to love or be loved. I think you either have the talent and appreciation for it or you don’t. But I don’t think love should be approached in this way. It is a natural phenomenon. It is also nurtured. If it happens it happens. If one gets too artistic about it one can come across as being kind of phony or like someone is trying to hard. And that can scare people off. I know it would scare me off if someone was to artsy about it with me. There are people, though, who are taken in by artsy, crafty lovers.

AS: I don't know if that is always the case. Sometimes when people are acting phony or if they are trying too hard it can mean they are socially awkward. It has been my experience that the "artsy crafty" lovers are not new to the "love" game. They have all their moves down and are very very good at what they do. It is for that reason that I find people who seem to try too hard enchanting in a way. It just seems they don't know what they are doing and it's adorable. But then I guess there is always going to be someone that likes what someone else doesn't.

S:Picasso was an artist and a lover. But was he an artist in his love making? Well, he sure had a number of lovers and wives. So he had some kind of talent for attracting women. Maybe, though, it had nothing to do with love but with a physical attraction or chemistry.

I think women fell in love with Picasso more than he fell in love with them. And I think he used and abused their love for him. Rather, he was an artist in the way he could hold their attention and love without reciprocating or being sincere about it. He was a great user and manipulator. He probably had a charm about him that melted women.

AS: Ah Pickaso, he did know how to charm the ladies. But I think he also knew how to charm the men...he just knew how to charm the world. But there is nothing wrong with that...some people like to be charmed. I agree he was a manipulator but that I think a few of his women knew that going in....I mean how can anyone with half a brain sleep with someone's man (or woman) and think he will remain faithful? But then did he promise to be faithful? Maybe he figured they knew he couldn't or maybe he even told them the truth and they thought they could change him? Who knows.

Personally, I think he just wanted to experience all life could offer and yet felt very alone. Perhaps he thought that if he had plenty of women he would never have to be alone as one would always take him in? If that was the case he certainly made a successful attempt. Loneliness is a very scary thing for some people.

S:Those who never find love or aren’t successful in love might think that it is an art. They may ask themselves, Am I deficient in this art? Why, then, don’t I have a partner in love? They may think it requires a special talent that they don’t have. Perhaps, though, it is that these people are trying to hard or are too intense about it. That can scare people off.

AS: I don't think it can scare a person off if they are being intense with the right person. I will agree that some people get turned off by this but some people dig it. Personally, I like people who lay their cards on the table. Now that doesn't mean they are the guy for me...it just means I would not be scared off...I would be intrigued. I would definitely date that type to see what type of person they were....if they were kind I would probably fall in love...because I like to be cherished intensely...lol. Just saying that there is a type for all people.

S:Some people have a gift for attracting lovers. They are great at that but maybe not so good at keeping or maintaining a relationship. I think, though, there is more art involved in maintaining a relationship than in love itself.

AS:I don't think maintaining a relationship is particularly hard if you get a lover who is also dedicated to maintaining the relationship...through thick and thin...because there will be both. If one person is unforgiving...then you might as well hang it up....just forget about love because you will never ever find that person who never needs to be forgiven for something. They don't exist.

S:Then there is the art of playing hard to get. One has to play it just right so as not to lose the love interest, maintaining both an allure yet a distance.

AS: Yuck....I hate those games...well...unless you are playing them in a knowing coy way to tease your partner. I think part of being kind to people and genuinely liking people is to accept them for who they are. I would not want to be with the person who I had to pretend to be something I am not. However, on the flip side of that...usually when you are in a secure relationship....you just don't need the person around you all the time...so it's kinda like playing "hard to get" but only your not playing...lol. My husband and I just think it's funny when we want to have our distance...like for example...sometimes after we have sex I will kinda kick him off me...sort of roll him off the bed so I can have it to myself....lol....he just laughs and moves into the next room. We both know we aren't joking around... but it's funny to us that we can be so rude/honest with each other.

S:There is also the idea of being in love. Some people can’t be without love. They need romantic love to feel whole. Then there are those who avoid love. They are afraid of love because they think they might lose it and losing is painful. I would call those people ‘artful dodgers’.

AS: That's a nice word for it, "artful dodgers.' But I think even they can find love....I have known some of those and you know who they tend to pair up with? People who don't take no for an answer. People who just "assume the sale." It's kind funny to watch a person go up to the artful dodger and say, "You are going to love me."

Artful dodger: No, I'm not.
Love interest: Yes you are.
AD: No I'm not.
LI:Yes you are now shut up and let's go out to dinner. I'll have the steak and you'll have the fish. Oooh! And let's get dessert!

Thanks for your comment AS. I should add something to that but at the moment I am exhausted on the subject.

Specially for Spike:
One of my favourite songs of the Seventies.
Pablo Picasso. By Jonothan Richman and the Modern Lovers


Well some people try to pick up girls
And get called assholes
This never happened to Pablo Picasso
He could walk down your street
And girls could not resist his stare and
So Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole

Well the girls would turn the color
Of the avacado when he would drive
Down their street in his El Dorado
He could walk down you street
And girls could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole
Not like you
Alright

Well he was only 5'3"
But girls could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole
Not in New York

Oh well be not schmuck, be not abnoxious,
Be not bellbottom bummer or asshole
Remember the story of Pablo Picasso
He could walk down your street
And girls could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole
Alright this is it

Some people try to pick up girls
And they get called an asshole
This never happened to Pablo Picasso
He could walk down your street
And girls could not resist his stare and so
Pablo Picasso was never called...

Thanks for that interesting tidbit Thundril. I looked it up on Youtube. Picasso and asshole rhyme pretty good.

The reference to Picasso reminded me of a movie I saw last week "Midnight in Paris" by Woody Allen. Picasso didn't come across as that bad.

Woody Allen I think views himself as artist of love, portraying love as an art in most of his movies.

I really love the way Johnny manages to scan

"Oh well be not schmuck, be not abnoxious,
Be not bellbottom bummer or asshole
Remember the story of Pablo Picasso. . .'

Aah, memories!

Repo Man (starring Emilio Estevez) was the movie with Pablo Picasso in the soundtrack

-Imp

Another way Love is Art is that love inspires art, like in song, literature and poetry. It magically makes the spirit soar to creative heights. Love, being the artist, paints picture on the empty canvases of the mind.

Often Love, like Art, is not real. It is just a figment of the imagination.

BAH, HUMBUG