Philosophy Now Forum

Xxicrimsonixx wrote:Alright, so I feel as though I am two-spirited. I believe that I could fulfill the role of either husband or wife, and I have characteristics generally considered female (such as artist/creative qualities, I am always smiling, and when I am around women, I feel like I can relate very well to them). I also have characteristics which are mainly male (such as my logical thinking mind, male bathroom habits (ie, not spending much time on appearance and such)) Also, I can relate very well to them as well. I am also biologically male.

Here is the problem though. I am pansexual (ie, I can be attracted to anyone despite gender or sexual orientation). The problem is that I am also attracting people despite their sexual orientation. At work, there are a couple cases of people who I feel as though we randomly locked eyes with each other while we were talking with each other, and now things are a little weird. Let me expand.

-Locked eyes with heterosexual man -- now things have gotten weird between us -- he is now questioning his sexuality (I am positive he is straight though). I can tell he is questioning his sexuality because at every possible opportunity, he has been projecting how bad it would be to be gay (such as suck dick and such) (more as a joke form though). The way he says it though, I can see he is saying it because of what he is feeling inside. Plus, he only started doing this after we locked eyes, never before, almost as though he is trying to strengthen his belief in his sexuality. I am going to speak to him though. He is a good friend, and I would hate for this to get in the way of our friendship. He is the type of person that would get the concept of a two-spirited person, and I don't believe he would blab about it because I doubt he would ever want to repeat the conversation again.
-Locked eyes with 3 lesbians (1 butch, 2 femme) -- butch lesbian has become very avoiding, 2 femme lesbians have been trying to get closer to me (1 has started giving me hugs every time I come into work, and the other buys pastries for me, and tells me which ones are her favorite, and that I should try it).
-Heterosexual boss (cannot recall locking eyes with him or not) has small crush on me (gets very flustered when around me or talking to me -- and treats me differently to all the other guys (in a good way though)).
-Heterosexual girl has also somewhat formed a crush on me after we locked eyes. Before the eye lock, we never talked or anything, and she kind of avoided me. Now she always calls me by my full first name (I have a shorter form of my first name which I commonly use), and she always gives me a huge smile and she introduced me to one of her friends like I was "all that", if you get what I mean by that.

And every time I lock eyes with the other person, it is hard to explain, but it is like a moment of pure peace and tranquility (pretty much the feeling of love at first site) looking into the other person's eyes -- guaranteed to be mutual because of how they reacted above shortly after the eye lock.

I was wondering what I should do with the above situation.

Another thing is, I feel as though I have the need to become a woman (I don't have the desire to do so permanently, but just to experience what it is like to be physically female, to experience receiving vaginal sex, I have the need to experience child birth as well (although I know it can never happen). It isn't even as though I would want to remain a female, because I know that I would then miss having a penis if I did change over, however, I do feel as though my female spirit is dominating my male spirit, which could be the cause for it (even though I am happy being, and remaining a man). It is just a thought that keeps recurring every once and a while, and when it occurs, I cannot get it out of my head.

So, I need some advice. If you have any, please let me hear it.

anna_sophia wrote:I think sexual orientation is not really a good method to predict gender. Gender is about different things: for example about emotional roles and body image. I think "two spirited" means bi-gender. If you have no problem with your non-sexual emotional role and you body then you have no gender identity problem. In my opinion.

Gender is not a natural category and tends to change with socio-historical change. 2 spirited; bi-gender; gay; body image; - these are all about fashion and social definition which is subject to change. This being the case, playing with these words tends to reveal the bias of those in whose mouth they appear.

anna_sophia wrote:Of course gender roles are changing all the times, but let's not confuse gender with gender role.

anna_sophia wrote:Chaz wrote:

Gender is not a natural category and tends to change with socio-historical change.- these are all about fashion and social definition which is subject to change. This being the case, playing with these words tends to reveal the bias of those in whose mouth they appear.

I would argue with that. As a transsexual woman it is obvious to me that gender is not learned, it is not a sociological entity. It is a neurobiological state of the brain.

Of course gender roles are changing all the times, but let's not confuse gender with gender role.

anna_sophia wrote:Yes I agree.

The tragedy of some sexual or gender minorities is that they don't have the same right to happiness as the real or supposed majority has.

These socially defined categories are the results of exercising power by the ruling elite and their value system.

No, - it is more often generated from the unintelligent underclass who fear change and difference. Children are the worst.
But you must admit that things are getting better. I live in Brighton, where the sight of a man dressed as a woman is a common enough sight and no longer merits any comment as it once did.
We still have a long way to go in general acceptance but things are much better than they used to be.

So gender and sexual roles are about power, redistribution and privileges in society.

That is a bleak way of looking at it.

I'm painfully aware of the fact that as a transsexual woman I'm at the mercy of gender roles based on social categories.

Maybe you should live somewhere where things are easier?
Q: are you now a woman that was a man? or the other way around? Are you post op?

But these gender roles are functioning as - maybe evolutionary - tools of stabilizing gender related behavior.

I don't think evolution has much to do with it. Evolution only happens in the the consequences - there is no purpose to evolution.

Gender roles are functioning as hidden walls or hidden prison cells - they are mostly invisible until someone tries to cross them.

The trick is to be happy in your skin. If you can's do that then the knife is now an option. Being happy in your skin is no prison.

Men and women are living simultaneously in two different societies - and they are not really realizing it.

Thankfully society is far more accepting of multiple realities.

It is very strange, that some moral conservatives are bashing transsexuals as sexual fetishists, but without changing the body no one can live as the member of the opposite gender.

Some prefer to simply cross dress - Moral Conservatives can drop dead. You will always get people who disapprove of you. I disapprove of moral conservatives. In a democracy we are even.

When I came out with my transsexuality without dressing as a woman nobody took me seriously - even after I pointed out very male atypical emotional and social behavior on my side.

I have atypical emotional behaviour - I just consider it what I am. And I think that all men have greater emotional spectrums inside them but are too uptight and scared of being called queer to express themselves. I was lucky, my Dad said it was okay to cry sometimes - that was about the only thing useful he gave me - but it was a lot.

After I got my ears pierced, plucked my eyebrows and painted my nails - suddenly I "became" a transsexual.

Rite of passage, normally takes on a practical ritual. An act of renewal.

What does it tell you about society? I'm not saying that I don't like the esthetics of being female - I do like it -, but why is it an overwhelming rule to equate the female gender with visually feminine body and clothing?

Well it is something you have chosen to comply with. Maybe you are best qualified to answer that question?

As much as it is expected of me not to desire to be female, it is equally expected of me to mutilate and change my body to become female.

For your peace of mind you have to follow a path designed by yourself , and not the one mapped out by an expectant populace.


Isn't it strange?

What I find strange is that you accept and describe yourself as a person divided "2 spirited". You need to define yourself in your won terms. There has never been a place or time in history where this has not been more possible than here and now.
Forget about what other people think about you, and seek people who are like minded.

No, - it is more often generated from the unintelligent underclass who fear change and difference. Children are the worst.
But you must admit that things are getting better. I live in Brighton, where the sight of a man dressed as a woman is a common enough sight and no longer merits any comment as it once did. We still have a long way to go in general acceptance but things are much better than they used to be.

That is a bleak way of looking at it.

Maybe you should live somewhere where things are easier?
Q: are you now a woman that was a man? or the other way around? Are you post op?

The trick is to be happy in your skin. If you can's do that then the knife is now an option. Being happy in your skin is no prison.

Some prefer to simply cross dress - Moral Conservatives can drop dead. You will always get people who disapprove of you. I disapprove of moral conservatives. In a democracy we are even.

I have atypical emotional behavior - I just consider it what I am. And I think that all men have greater emotional spectrums inside them but are too uptight and scared of being called queer to express themselves. I was lucky, my Dad said it was okay to cry sometimes - that was about the only thing useful he gave me - but it was a lot.

Rite of passage, normally takes on a practical ritual. An act of renewal.

Well it is something you have chosen to comply with. Maybe you are best qualified to answer that question?

For your peace of mind you have to follow a path designed by yourself , and not the one mapped out by an expectant populace.

What I find strange is that you accept and describe yourself as a person divided "2 spirited". You need to define yourself in your won terms. There has never been a place or time in history where this has not been more possible than here and now.
Forget about what other people think about you, and seek people who are like minded.

anna_sophia wrote:

No, - it is more often generated from the unintelligent underclass who fear change and difference. Children are the worst.
But you must admit that things are getting better. I live in Brighton, where the sight of a man dressed as a woman is a common enough sight and no longer merits any comment as it once did. We still have a long way to go in general acceptance but things are much better than they used to be.

I think it is about self control which has a strong correlation with intelligence.

The unintelligent underclass has low IQ so they are more instinctive.

These instincts tell them to fear anything which is alien to them or suppress and indirectly destroy humans with disabilities or strange genetic disorders.

That is a bleak way of looking at it.

I think humanity's dream of being better than animals is overly optimistic.

We are still the biological puppets of evolution.

Maybe you should live somewhere where things are easier?
Q: are you now a woman that was a man? or the other way around? Are you post op?

I'm chromosomally male with partially female brain. For some reason - it has been speculated that it is some kind of testosterone-receptor error - during pregnancy my brain did not react to testosterone, so part of it, which is responsible for the "inner body image" and "self gender image" remained or became feminine. By the way there are probably a lot more parts of my brain that are feminine, for example social and emotional skills, some sexual traits etc.. Some parts of my brain reacted to testosterone, so I have good spatial abilities and I like abstract thinking.

By the way this article was the first scientific proof of transsexuality:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

To explain it with personal feelings: I feel that I'm a female, and I'm in the wrong body. I'm getting upset if I see my "male" body or people treat me like I'm a male.

It is a major and constant emotional burden.

I'm currently no-op, which means that I opted to stay in a male body for carrier, family and health reasons.

I'm mostly cross-dressing - which means from my prospective that I have to wear male clothes a lot.

The trick is to be happy in your skin. If you can's do that then the knife is now an option. Being happy in your skin is no prison.

It is a very difficult trick. Being transsexual means you are a mutant with a female identity. You feel like being a female but you are not a female.

It is not impossible to live this way, but it gets very tiring after a long time.

Some prefer to simply cross dress - Moral Conservatives can drop dead. You will always get people who disapprove of you. I disapprove of moral conservatives. In a democracy we are even.

In my opinion democracy without prosperity, equality, rule of law and tolerance means nothing.

I have atypical emotional behavior - I just consider it what I am. And I think that all men have greater emotional spectrums inside them but are too uptight and scared of being called queer to express themselves. I was lucky, my Dad said it was okay to cry sometimes - that was about the only thing useful he gave me - but it was a lot.

In my case I had to fight against myself for decades - just because I was told to do so. After a certain point I realized that I'm not fighting against some small emotional weakness - I'm fighting against my core identity.

Rite of passage, normally takes on a practical ritual. An act of renewal.

But why is it, that I had to use my body as a sexual object to prove that I'm not a male?

Why is it that men and women somehow demanded some kind of proof, some kind of sacrifice in order to take seriously my claim?

Can a rite of passage be demanded by society?

Well it is something you have chosen to comply with. Maybe you are best qualified to answer that question?

For me the reason was frustration - female friends thought I was joking. The idea of a female living inside of a man is just unacceptable and so improbable that nobody believes you.

Of course I was always interested in female fashion but found it unappropiate to "crossdress" ( I think this is the main difference between transsexuals and transvestites: for a transsexual wearing female clothes is an esthetic tool to express their femininity, but for transvestites it is in itself the whole purpose).

So my decision wasn't based on some kind of fetishistic desire, it was more the need for emotional response and acceptance.

For your peace of mind you have to follow a path designed by yourself , and not the one mapped out by an expectant populace.

What I think is strange that many people will only accept me as a second class woman and only after mutilating my body. Without mutilation there is no acceptance. You cannot be a woman living inside a man's body. That's a crazy person or a sexual pervert - according to many people.

What I find strange is that you accept and describe yourself as a person divided "2 spirited". You need to define yourself in your won terms. There has never been a place or time in history where this has not been more possible than here and now.
Forget about what other people think about you, and seek people who are like minded.

Yes, I absolutely agree but the problem of transsexuality is that you are a male with clear feminine identity. It is a choice between personal and emotional happiness and power, social status. It is very hard to give up male privileges if you want to fulfill your life without children of your own.

I would be a woman without hesitation if it was just a question of will.

But I know that a post-op transsexual woman cannot have children, cannot live a full female life.

That is total bullshit. I know many women who cannot have, do not want to have, wanted to have but cannot - that doe not make them less of a human being and not less of a woman.
You are happy in your victimhood. You define yourself by your 'condition' as if it was a disease. get over yourself and do like everyone else has to - live with yourself.
All I hear from you is problems - it's like you prefer it that way.


I don't see why is it better to be a second class, incomplete woman than a female living in a male body - both are an imperfect solution.

That is total bullshit. I know many women who cannot have, do not want to have, wanted to have but cannot - that doe not make them less of a human being and not less of a woman.
You are happy in your victimhood. You define yourself by your 'condition' as if it was a disease. get over yourself and do like everyone else has to - live with yourself.
All I hear from you is problems - it's like you prefer it that way.

I'm sorry for you - you are your own judge and prison guard.
I never think of myself as a man. I always think of myself as me. When you can do that all this shit will dissipate.
Get on with who you are, and stop blaming the world.

anna_sophia wrote:

That is total bullshit. I know many women who cannot have, do not want to have, wanted to have but cannot - that doe not make them less of a human being and not less of a woman.
You are happy in your victimhood. You define yourself by your 'condition' as if it was a disease. get over yourself and do like everyone else has to - live with yourself.
All I hear from you is problems - it's like you prefer it that way.

This is not victimhood, this is kind of a surrender.

I'm not saying that being a woman is degrading, but I do feel that it is part of being female that you have to accept some kind of loss of social standing.

Crap. My partner is as smart as me and has a better job. You are just a sexist.

Even in a small way having pierced ears is a permanent loss of social standing
- if it gets noticed people treat me a little bit differently, but always with a loss of authority, even if I wear a suit.

You want your cake and eat it.

These hidden prejudices and convictions are in our subconscious - and we treat people according to them, without noticing our discrimination.

No, I can tell you that you are full of these prejudices.

If someone does not fight against discrimination or accepts it - you won't even notice what you did.

Your entire raison d'etre is concerned with your Sexism.

By the way I wasn't talking about "women" in general.

I was talking about myself, my feelings. How can my feelings about myself be "bullshit"?

Not been able to have a baby makes you less of a woman is bullshit

For me the inability to have a womb, to have children is a very serious problem.

Okay Loretta, I'll fight for your right to have a baby eventhough you don't have a womb.

But I can understand that there are some women who are happy without children - having children is a very serious burden and a difficult task.

And many is the woman that is unhappy with children.

I'm sorry for you - you are your own judge and prison guard.
I never think of myself as a man. I always think of myself as me. When you can do that all this shit will dissipate.
Get on with who you are, and stop blaming the world.

I'm not blaming the world, these are just my feelings.

The problem is that you can't tell me to "be a man", because well - I'm not one.

DO you have a p****? yes - then you are a man.

In a way I'm emotional, I'm weak - so I won't pretend that I'm strong.

We are all weal when it is advantagous for us to be weak.
If you are weal then you are not even a woman.

I don't want to get on with who I am - I just accepted myself not a long time ago.

Yes, I'm happy that I reached this point, but I have these conflicting feelings about my purpose in life.

Crap. My partner is as smart as me and has a better job. You are just a sexist. 

No, I can tell you that you are full of these prejudices. 

Your entire raison d'etre is concerned with your Sexism. 

Not been able to have a baby makes you less of a woman is bullshit 

Okay Loretta, I'll fight for your right to have a baby eventhough you don't have a womb. 

And many is the woman that is unhappy with children. 

DO you have a p****? yes - then you are a man.

We are all weal when it is advantageous for us to be weak. 
If you are weal then you are not even a woman.