The Philosophy Discussion Forum

I have a question for the more scientifically enlightened here...

is the space between electrons and protons constant depending on the size of the atom?

is the space between one electron and one proton in a hydrogen atom the same as the space between one electron and one proton in another hydrogen atom?

is the space between the one electron and one proton in a hydrogen atom equivalent to the space between the electrons and protons in a helium atom?

is that atomic space necessitated by the existence of said atom?

wouldn't a molecule demand more space?

(and yes, if you go the other way, our solar system is an oxygen atom)

-Imp

no because (according to the most widely accepted interpretations of QM - possibly they're not correct though I suppose) an electron isn't just in one specific place at any given time. where an electron belonging to an atom might be at any moment is defined by what you might call a 'probability cloud'

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrgwmqAvyki/

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2026 8:42 pm I have a question for the more scientifically enlightened here...

is the space between electrons and protons constant depending on the size of the atom?

is the space between one electron and one proton in a hydrogen atom the same as the space between one electron and one proton in another hydrogen atom?

And besides what was just said, depends "in what state" the outer electrons are in. And where that atom is in relation to other atoms.

Thus in the example of Hydrogen, when a gas, will pair up as molecules of H2, the outer (only) electrons being srt of shared.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2026 8:42 pmis the space between electrons and protons constant depending on the size of the atom?

Both Flannel Jesus and MikeNovack illustrate the difficulty of specifying where an electron is at any time. For myself, as the opening words to the chapter on chemistry say:

If you scuff a rug, you put energy into it. That might just compress the rug, but if you put enough energy in, the rug will wrinkle. It’s most likely to wrinkle close to your foot, but it could wrinkle anywhere with the likelihood decreasing with distance.
That’s a bit like how electrons work. Like all particles they are just energy in big bang stuff, so unless it wrinkles, an electron isn’t really anywhere.

It goes on to explain that the probability clouds Flannel Jesus speaks about have specific shapes and are called orbitals. While in theory an electron that is part of an atom could be anywhere in the universe, if you conduct an experiment to find it, the chances are it will turn up in an orbital. It's mad, crazy shit, but anyone into mad, crazy shit can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital
Wait, no, start here: https://willybouwman.blogspot.com/2024/ ... ation.html Trust me, it's a lot more gentle.

the reason I ask is that the existence of atoms themselves seems to include space...

is the universe really expanding or are atoms simply moving quicker?

I wonder if the total space of the orbits of the electrons in two hydrogen atoms and the electrons in one oxygen atom is increased when combined into a water molecule...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2026 5:00 pmthe reason I ask is that the existence of atoms themselves seems to include space...

Well, without meaning to sound trite, the existence of anything requires a space for it to be in. In terms of atoms, it is tempting to think of protons, neutrons and electrons as little blobs of stuff, with space in between them. There is a broad consensus that they are in fact just ripples and eddies in 'quantum fields,' so between them is more quantum field. But then there's string theorists who think they're wiggly things.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2026 5:00 pmis the universe really expanding or are atoms simply moving quicker?

Ah well, for why scientists think the universe is expanding, you want the first chapter which explains spectroscopy and the Doppler Effect, and how between them they strongly suggest that the universe is expanding. As for atoms moving quicker, well no; everything is moving through space and time at the speed of light, it's just that the more movement through space, the less movement through time; that's yer Einstein and time slowing down the faster you go (through space). You want the chapter on relativity for that.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2026 5:00 pmI wonder if the total space of the orbits of the electrons in two hydrogen atoms and the electrons in one oxygen atom is increased when combined into a water molecule...

-Imp

No. That's in the chapter on Chemistry too.
https://willybouwman.blogspot.com/2024/ ... ation.html

if space is nothing but the distance between points, I don't think it can expand, especially without a measurer...

sure, the distance between points of matter moving in opposite directions gets larger, but I don't know if the universal playground expands - going into nothing making "more" nothing between points does not necessarily imply that the nothing itself grows...

damn Protagoras again...

but back to the first: "the existence of anything requires a space for it to be in" ... where exactly did that thought arise?

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2026 12:31 am if space is nothing but the distance between points, I don't think it can expand, especially without a measurer...

sure, the distance between points of matter moving in opposite directions gets larger, but I don't know if the universal playground expands - going into nothing making "more" nothing between points does not necessarily imply that the nothing itself grows...

Well yeah, that sort of space only gets longer if points move, it doesn't expand. When the eggheads say space expands, they mean the stuff between stars, outer space, if you like, that it is full of one or more quantum field and it is that which is expanding.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2026 12:31 amdamn Protagoras again...

Well, there are some fairly outré interpretations of the observer effect that suggest he was onto something.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2026 12:31 ambut back to the first: "the existence of anything requires a space for it to be in" ... where exactly did that thought arise?

-Imp

In the space between my ears.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Aug 08, 2026 10:02 am Well yeah, that sort of space only gets longer if points move, it doesn't expand.

I noticed the irony

distance and time (to traverse) both increase (get longer) while not expanding...

-Imp

What I strongly suggest those without college level Physics/Chemistry do to get an understanding of these concepts is to get/read the "Mr.Thompkins" series of books (by George Gamow -- though earlier editions may show co-authors Gamow got to agree to have their names attached as a joke punning Alpha, Beta, Gamma)

You don't have to know the role of Gamow in early-mid 20th Century Physics to profit from these books he wrote expressly to give lay persons access to the basic concepts. What he does in them is consider the consequences if (several) fundamental constants were radically different, large enough so that we would observe atomic/quantum type phenomenon in our everyday lives.

LOL, There is even a "graphic novel" version done by his son Igor Gamow "The Complete Adventures of Mr.Thompkins".