The Philosophy Discussion Forum

As an agnostic, I wouldn't call myself happy. I mostly just ruminate over the absurdity and futility of life. However, from what I've witnessed of theists, they may not always be happy, but they seem to have more happiness in life than I do.

It makes me wonder: Am I not happy because I'm agnostic or am I agnostic because I'm not happy?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 5:31 pm As an agnostic, I wouldn't call myself happy. I mostly just ruminate over the absurdity and futility of life. However, from what I've witnessed of theists, they may not always be happy, but they seem to have more happiness in life than I do.

How about non-theists? Do they seem to have more happiness than you?

If you are actively religious you tend to be happier than secular people. But if you are actively social as a non-religious person the gap disappears. And the gap disappears if the theist is does not participate so much in religion's social and community life. So the steps toward happiness might have nothing to do with being agnostic.

It makes me wonder: Am I not happy because I'm agnostic or am I agnostic because I'm not happy?

Were you ever a theist, perhaps as a child? You might find an answer looking at when you changed.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 5:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 5:31 pm As an agnostic, I wouldn't call myself happy. I mostly just ruminate over the absurdity and futility of life. However, from what I've witnessed of theists, they may not always be happy, but they seem to have more happiness in life than I do.

How about non-theists? Do they seem to have more happiness than you?

If you are actively religious you tend to be happier than secular people. But if you are actively social as a non-religious person the gap disappears. And the gap disappears if the theist is does not participate so much in religion's social and community life. So the steps toward happiness might have nothing to do with being agnostic.

It makes me wonder: Am I not happy because I'm agnostic or am I agnostic because I'm not happy?

Were you ever a theist, perhaps as a child? You might find an answer looking at when you changed.

When I was a child I was an atheist. I was unhappy a lot as a child but I didn't have a feeling of hopelessness and futility that I do now. It's possible that I was happier as a child because I could do more things and I didn't have a sense of impending doom so close on the horizon. You may be right in that happiness and one's beliefs concerning religion don't have a great deal to do with each other. Happiness probably has a lot more to do with one's connections (or lack of) with others around us.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 6:32 pm Happiness probably has a lot more to do with one's connections (or lack of) with others around us.

I think so. I think depression, for example, has been overmedicalized...because that makes certain people a lot of money. There is a movement to focus on connections instead. Johann Hari has written a couple of interesting books, one on this topic Lost Connections and another on addiction

In Lost Connections he argues that correcting these disconnections is vastly better than the medical approaches. But, how are people helped to make these connections? There's the rub.
Disconnection from meaningful work--Work feels controlled, pointless, or lacking autonomy.
Disconnection from other people--Loneliness, weak social bonds, lack of belonging.
Disconnection from meaningful values--Living by extrinsic values (status, money, appearance) instead of intrinsic ones (community, growth, meaning).
Disconnection from childhood security / unresolved trauma--Early adverse experiences shaping later emotional vulnerability.
Disconnection from status and respect--Chronic feelings of inferiority, inequality, or lack of recognition.
Disconnection from the natural world--Little contact with nature or embodied environments humans evolved in.
Disconnection from a hopeful or secure future--Loss of agency, stability, or belief that things can improve.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 7:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 6:32 pm Happiness probably has a lot more to do with one's connections (or lack of) with others around us.

I think so. I think depression, for example, has been overmedicalized...because that makes certain people a lot of money. There is a movement to focus on connections instead. Johann Hari has written a couple of interesting books, one on this topic Lost Connections and another on addiction

In Lost Connections he argues that correcting these disconnections is vastly better than the medical approaches. But, how are people helped to make these connections? There's the rub.
Disconnection from meaningful work--Work feels controlled, pointless, or lacking autonomy.
Disconnection from other people--Loneliness, weak social bonds, lack of belonging.
Disconnection from meaningful values--Living by extrinsic values (status, money, appearance) instead of intrinsic ones (community, growth, meaning).
Disconnection from childhood security / unresolved trauma--Early adverse experiences shaping later emotional vulnerability.
Disconnection from status and respect--Chronic feelings of inferiority, inequality, or lack of recognition.
Disconnection from the natural world--Little contact with nature or embodied environments humans evolved in.
Disconnection from a hopeful or secure future--Loss of agency, stability, or belief that things can improve.

Wow! I think I fit the entire list above.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 7:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 6:32 pm Happiness probably has a lot more to do with one's connections (or lack of) with others around us.

I think so. I think depression, for example, has been overmedicalized...because that makes certain people a lot of money. There is a movement to focus on connections instead. Johann Hari has written a couple of interesting books, one on this topic Lost Connections and another on addiction

In Lost Connections he argues that correcting these disconnections is vastly better than the medical approaches. But, how are people helped to make these connections? There's the rub.
Disconnection from meaningful work--Work feels controlled, pointless, or lacking autonomy.
Disconnection from other people--Loneliness, weak social bonds, lack of belonging.
Disconnection from meaningful values--Living by extrinsic values (status, money, appearance) instead of intrinsic ones (community, growth, meaning).
Disconnection from childhood security / unresolved trauma--Early adverse experiences shaping later emotional vulnerability.
Disconnection from status and respect--Chronic feelings of inferiority, inequality, or lack of recognition.
Disconnection from the natural world--Little contact with nature or embodied environments humans evolved in.
Disconnection from a hopeful or secure future--Loss of agency, stability, or belief that things can improve.

Is this the Johann Hari, you're referring to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari

Funny, sounds like he's a bit of a rebel and misfit but that alone doesn't make someone's claims wrong. Otherwise, it does sound like a pretty common sense explanation for the causes of depression. However, I don't think his analysis would apply to anti-psychotics. Anti-psychotics seem to treat a very real malady in the only way that it can currently be treated.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 8:20 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 7:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 6:32 pm Happiness probably has a lot more to do with one's connections (or lack of) with others around us.

I think so. I think depression, for example, has been overmedicalized...because that makes certain people a lot of money. There is a movement to focus on connections instead. Johann Hari has written a couple of interesting books, one on this topic Lost Connections and another on addiction

In Lost Connections he argues that correcting these disconnections is vastly better than the medical approaches. But, how are people helped to make these connections? There's the rub.
Disconnection from meaningful work--Work feels controlled, pointless, or lacking autonomy.
Disconnection from other people--Loneliness, weak social bonds, lack of belonging.
Disconnection from meaningful values--Living by extrinsic values (status, money, appearance) instead of intrinsic ones (community, growth, meaning).
Disconnection from childhood security / unresolved trauma--Early adverse experiences shaping later emotional vulnerability.
Disconnection from status and respect--Chronic feelings of inferiority, inequality, or lack of recognition.
Disconnection from the natural world--Little contact with nature or embodied environments humans evolved in.
Disconnection from a hopeful or secure future--Loss of agency, stability, or belief that things can improve.

Wow! I think I fit the entire list above.

Realizing connection, YES!! Very helpful in so many ways. Years ago (as I've said before), psychedelic-use showed me new levels of connection with all things, and it was just what a skeptical Christian girl needed after years of being fed obvious nonsense. It was life-changing and blew the doors of perception wide open. (There are many paths... this was mine.) Being connected made much more sense than being separated! Seems likely that some of the accounts in the bible were from psychedelic use, but they've been distorted into a false and controlled narrative. So much of religion relies on the fear of separation.

I've heard that, these days, micro-dosing (smaller, controlled and supervised doses) is said to help people with depressive tendencies. It might be better than harsh pharmaceutical drugs that cause all kinds of side-effects -- and humankind has been using hallucinogens for eons to expand perception. Have you thought of trying micro-dosing, Gary? (I don't remember if you've said.)

Of course, you may be entertained in some way with your struggle... like a familiar dance. That's fine too.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 5:31 pm As an agnostic, I wouldn't call myself happy. I mostly just ruminate over the absurdity and futility of life. However, from what I've witnessed of theists, they may not always be happy, but they seem to have more happiness in life than I do.

It makes me wonder: Am I not happy because I'm agnostic or am I agnostic because I'm not happy?

I'd just suggest this, Gary. That happiness isn't a thing that can actually be pursued, because it's a feeling. Feelings come and go in concert with other things, rather than being something you can generate in yourself. (Just try to "force yourself" to feel loving toward somebody you find ugly and unpleasant, or to feel peace in the presence of a hungry tiger, or to feel fear in the presence of teddy bears; you can't do it. You'll find that the means to produce those feelings just aren't there.)

This is why people look to circumstances to make it possible. They suppose that if they only had more money, or fewer problems, or were more handsome or famous they would be happy. But Hollywood is full of the rich, privileged, attractive and famous...and they're often quite unhappy, if you look at their personal lives. It's as if having more makes them want more. And somehow, the plan is just not quite working out for all too many of us.

May I suggest what the alternative might be? Meaning. Lives wherein people find deep meaning never seem to be really unhappy...and this is true even in the case of those whose circumstances are genuinely hard, with little money, no fame, ordinary looks, and no special privileges at all. In fact, some of the happiest people have had rather circumstantially painful lives, but somehow still manage to find joy in spite of it all.

I submit to you that what relativizes circumstances for them is meaning. If life is meaningful, almost nothing can happen that can deprive a person of his sense of well-being. In good times, he is glad for his good circumstances, without clinging fearfully to them; in times of deprivation, he knows he is engaged in honourable self-sacrifice to that which is of ultimate value; but in actual bad times, he is a noble, dedicated, persisting servant of the good, and still knows that his travails will serve a higher calling. His circumstances are interpreted through a meaningful view of life.

Happiness attaches to such people like super-glue. In fact, you'll find it's nearly impossible to make them miserable. But it's the meaning that frames their circumstances that generates the happiness that becomes integral to them. They know where they're going, why, and how everything in their lives serves that end. Whatever happens, their lives become a story that makes ultimate sense.

Seek meaning, with happiness as an entailment; not happiness directly.

Just my suggestion. Consider it, if you find it helpful to your thoughts.

wanting what others appear to have is a common problem...

find contentment

-Imp