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LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 6:59 pm
by Alexiev
One problem with modern liberalism is that it abhors the dramatic. For example, modern liberalism opposes the death penalty. This is all well and good – abolishing the death penalty would doubtless protect innocent people from being wrongly executed, protect the vengeful public from drenching its hands in the blood of the guilty, and advance civility.

But advancing civility does not always promote morality, or even humanitarian causes. Civility is a fine thing, but it is a veneer disguising the dramatic realities of life. Good breeding (Mark Twain wrote) consists in concealing how much we think of ourselves, and how little we think of the other person. Far be it from me to object to concealment on principle. But liberalism is supposed to promote openness.

The death penalty is a perfect example. An execution used to be a dramatic, public event. The murderer, heavily shackled, was paraded through the streets of the town in a donkey cart. The family of the soon to be deceased wept. The relatives of the murdered watched. The condemned man spoke his last words, which, if the audience was lucky, were something dramatic like, “See you in hell, mom.”

Today the drama of an execution has been demeaned, what with “lethal injection”, an execution technique that makes killing someone look like a medical procedure. Liberalism got rid of the public square, the donkey cart, the guillotine and the gibbet, although we have yet to get rid of the needle. But why should we get rid of the guillotine and the gibbet? Although lethal injection may save the witnesses from queasiness, it is hard to argue that it is much more humane for the guest of honor. And it is certainly less humane for the city desk reporter, who in olden days could write, “The great blade flashed, and X’s head and body (like his soul and body) were permanently severed.” What can be written about lethal injection?

Modern liberalism promotes excessive (and phony) civility. If we can’t ban executions, let’s at least disguise them. If we can’t get rid of poverty, let’s at least get these homeless people off of the street, so we can’t see them any more.

An execution used to be a dramatic, public event. The murderer, heavily shackled, was paraded through the streets of the town in a donkey cart. The family of the soon to be deceased wept. The relatives of the murdered watched.

Today the drama of an execution has been demeaned, what with “lethal injection”, an execution technique that makes killing someone look like a medical procedure. Liberalism got rid of the public square, the donkey cart, the guillotine and the gibbet, although we have yet to get rid of the needle. But why should we get rid of the guillotine and the gibbet? Although lethal injection may save the witnesses from queasiness, it is hard to argue that it is much more humane for the guest of honor.

If we are going to execute people, we should have the courage to avoid concealment. Let’s do it right. In the public square. With a guillotine. If a little blood makes us squeamish, if a head falling into a basket seems inhumane – maybe we should abolish the whole thing.

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 7:33 pm
by Impenitent
guillotines are too neat and quick

the method of execution should resemble the method of murder when all possible

-Imp

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:00 pm
by FlashDangerpants
You gotta sell streaming rights and merch. The only option is gladiatorial combat to the death in a sci-fi arena. Or... now hear me out, get all of the death row convicts and put them in cars with machine guns strapped to them and shitty miles per gallon.... the rest writes itself.






If mister Can reads this, please be assured I don't really mean that stuff.

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:24 pm
by accelafine
Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the justice system being deeply flawed with countless wrongful convictiions and miscarriages of justice.

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:41 am
by LuckyR
So in the OPs universe, countries that skip the donkey cart parade through the village for the death penalty are "liberal", what are countries who have abolished the death penalty? Crazy liberal? So which countries aren't "liberal"?

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:58 am
by accelafine
In 2022, the five countries that executed the most people were, in descending order, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the United States.

Since 1990, at least 11 countries have executed offenders who were minors (under the age of 18 or 21) at the time the crime was committed, which is a breach of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by all countries but the United States. These are China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, South Sudan, Sudan, the United States, and Yemen.[11][12][13] In the United States, this ended in 2005 with the Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons, in Nigeria in 2015 by law,[14] and in Saudi Arabia in 2020 by royal decree.

Although the majority of countries have abolished capital punishment, over half of the world's population live in countries where the death penalty is retained, including India, China, the U.S., Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Japan, Vietnam, Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Congo.



Not forgetting islamic shit-holes. Wow America, you are in terrific company. 'Land of the free' .

I'm surprised Japan has the death penalty. I didn't think it even had crime :lol:

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 5:47 pm
by Impenitent
accelafine wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:24 pm Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the justice system being deeply flawed with countless wrongful convictiions and miscarriages of justice.
but the jury voted democratically...

-Imp

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 8:07 pm
by accelafine
Impenitent wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 5:47 pm
accelafine wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2025 8:24 pm Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the justice system being deeply flawed with countless wrongful convictiions and miscarriages of justice.
but the jury voted democratically...

-Imp
American 'logic'. Not worth the neuron firing.

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:02 pm
by Alexiev
accelafine wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 7:58 am In 2022, the five countries that executed the most people were, in descending order, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the United States.

Since 1990, at least 11 countries have executed offenders who were minors (under the age of 18 or 21) at the time the crime was committed, which is a breach of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by all countries but the United States. These are China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, South Sudan, Sudan, the United States, and Yemen.[11][12][13] In the United States, this ended in 2005 with the Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons, in Nigeria in 2015 by law,[14] and in Saudi Arabia in 2020 by royal decree.

Although the majority of countries have abolished capital punishment, over half of the world's population live in countries where the death penalty is retained, including India, China, the U.S., Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Japan, Vietnam, Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Congo.



Not forgetting islamic shit-holes. Wow America, you are in terrific company. 'Land of the free' .

I'm surprised Japan has the death penalty. I didn't think it even had crime :lol:
I'm opposed to the death penalty, as the last sentence of my OP suggests. However, I think the notion that it is immoral because we might execute an innocent man is misguided. We should, of course, design legal systems so that wrongful convictions are as rare as possible, but errors will occur. The penalty phase of a trial and the "innocent or guilty" phase are distinct. It is horrible to execute an innocent person; it is almost as horrible to see him die in prison after 30 years of confinement.

I oppose executing the guilty or the innocent (although, of course, executing the innocent is more shocking)..

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:18 pm
by Impenitent
Alexiev wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 10:02 pm (although, of course, executing the innocent is more shocking)..
not really a Metallica fan, but Ride the Lightning wasn't that bad at the time...

-Imp

Re: LIberalism and the Death Penalty

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 9:57 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Impenitent wrote: Sat Jun 14, 2025 7:33 pm guillotines are too neat and quick

the method of execution should resemble the method of murder when all possible

-Imp
"Meatfucker" (GCU Grey Area) does it best in Excession, with its near psychopathic sense of righteousness. Also explored repeatedly in Black Mirror.

God exceeds even that.