Philosophy Now Forum

iambiguous wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 2:18 am The existence of God is always something I believed was possible. After all, that is one possible explanation for the existence of existence itself.

Instead, the part I always come back to is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... _pandemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

So, believing in the existence of God is not nearly as pressing as theodicy for some of us.

Seriously! iambiguous wants HEAVE_n mode without doing the hard heave to earn it.


ME:- What is Theodicy?
Theodicy is a branch of theology and philosophy that seeks to answer the question:

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and wholly good, why does evil exist?

In short, it is the attempt to justify the existence of a good and omnipotent God in the face of the reality of evil and suffering in the world.

Origin of the Term

• []Coined by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in 1710 in his book "Théodicée" (meaning "the justice of God").
  []Derived from Greek: theos (God) + dikē (justice).

Core Problem (The Problem of Evil)
Theodicy tries to resolve the apparent contradiction between these claims:

• []God is omnipotent (all-powerful).
  []God is omniscient (all-knowing).
  []God is omnibenevolent (all-good).
  []Evil exists.

These cannot all be true at the same time without explanation.

Major Types of Theodicy

• Free Will Theodicy (Augustine, Alvin Plantinga):
  Evil exists because God gave humans free will, and humans chose to do evil. Free will is necessary for genuine love and moral responsibility.
• Soul-Making Theodicy (Irenaeus, John Hick):
  Suffering and evil are necessary for spiritual growth. The world is a "vale of soul-making" where humans develop into morally mature beings.
• Greater Good Theodicy:
  God allows certain evils because they lead to a greater good or prevent a greater evil.
• Punishment Theodicy:
  Evil and suffering result from divine punishment, either for original sin or personal wrongdoing.
• Mystery or Skeptical Theism:
  God's reasons for allowing evil may exist but lie beyond human understanding.

ME:- Is God "wholly good" if it creates a planet, Earth, forms life including humans and allows the planet to have natural systems of cause and effect, such as earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis?

This is a profound question—central to the problem of natural evil in the philosophy of religion. To analyze whether God can still be considered “wholly good” if He creates a world with natural disasters, we can break it down into a few key perspectives. I'll format this in a phpBB-style layout as well:

Question:
Is God “wholly good” if He creates Earth with natural systems like earthquakes, volcanoes, and tsunamis that can cause suffering and death?

Key Distinction:
There are two types of evil traditionally discussed in theology:

• []Moral evil: Caused by human actions (e.g., murder, theft, war).
  []Natural evil: Suffering caused by natural events (e.g., earthquakes, diseases, floods).

Your question targets natural evil.

Possible Responses:

1. Free Process Theodicy
   Some argue that a stable, law-governed universe—where causes lead to predictable effects—is a necessary condition for life and moral responsibility. For example:
   

   A world without tectonic activity would likely not have continents or a stable climate over geologic time. Volcanoes recycle nutrients. Plate tectonics shapes ecosystems. Without these, no life at all might be possible.

   Thus, God allows such systems to function freely, even if they can cause harm.
2. Soul-Making Perspective
   Natural disasters create opportunities for human courage, compassion, and solidarity:
   

   Suffering from nature can play a role in moral and spiritual development—individuals and societies grow through facing adversity.

3. Greater Good Defense
   Some theologians argue that the existence of natural evils is justified because they are part of a system that brings about a greater good which we may not fully comprehend.
4. Limit of Human Knowledge (Skeptical Theism)
   It may be that God's reasons are beyond our grasp:
   

   Just as a child may not understand a parent’s tough decisions, humans may not understand divine reasons for allowing suffering.

5. Critique of Divine Goodness
   From a more skeptical or atheist view:
   

   If God is truly omnipotent, He could have created a world with all the benefits and none of the disasters. Allowing suffering through natural systems seems incompatible with perfect goodness.

   This challenges either God’s power, His goodness, or even His existence.

Conclusion:
Whether God is still “wholly good” in light of natural evil depends on one’s underlying assumptions:

• []If we accept that moral growth and cosmic order require some risk and suffering, then God's goodness may be intact.
  []If we believe a truly good God would prevent all suffering, then the presence of natural evil challenges that goodness.

iambiguous, what a boring world would we have if there were no diseases, no challenges of 'acts of God', not even a broken arm..that form of "heaven" would truly be boring. We would not need doctors, we would not need to learn how to predict natural disasters...indeed, we'd all be bored out of our brains.


ME:- In answer to your conclusion, I'll put it to you that God can limit suffering below the threshold that Christ set. Also, if there were no diseases, no challenges of 'acts of God', not even a broken arm..that form of "heaven" would truly be boring. We would not need doctors, we would not need to learn how to predict natural disasters...indeed, we'd all be bored out of our brains. Thus, if God allows natural disasters but limits suffering below the pain threshold that He endured, can we now consider God "wholly good"?

Your Proposal (Restated):

God can allow natural challenges like disasters, disease, and injury as part of a dynamic and meaningful world. However, if He limits the intensity of suffering to remain below the threshold experienced by Christ (the worst permissible suffering), then God's moral character remains unimpeached. In fact, this limit serves both moral and existential purposes—avoiding a sterile, "boring" existence while preserving divine goodness.

Formalized Argument:

1. []P1: A world without suffering, danger, or challenge would be static, boring, and lacking in meaning, growth, or purpose.
   []P2: God allows natural processes (e.g., disasters, disease) to preserve the meaningful structure of creation.
   []P3: God limits the magnitude of suffering to be no greater than the threshold of suffering He Himself endured in Christ.
   []P4: A being who shares in the worst suffering and imposes no more than what He Himself bore shows ultimate moral empathy and restraint.
2. C: Therefore, God can still be considered “wholly good” even while permitting natural suffering.

Philosophical Weight of This View:

This view cleverly merges:

• []The soul-making theodicy (adversity shapes virtue),
  []The Christocentric model of suffering (God enters suffering),
• And a limit condition (suffering is finite and bounded by divine empathy).

It reframes the moral problem of evil not as “Why is there pain?”, but “Is there too much pain?”
Your answer: No, because God has set the limit by personally experiencing and not exceeding it for others.

Theological Implication:

This echoes Hebrews 4:15 (KJV):

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

And 1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV):

"God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able..."

These suggest divine sympathy and calibrated trial—not arbitrary infliction.

Final Answer to Your Question:

Yes—if we accept that:

• []God allows natural adversity for the sake of growth, meaning, and participation in the divine narrative,
  []And that suffering is capped by what God Himself was willing to endure,

then God can be considered "wholly good" in a world with natural evil.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:32 am ME:- In answer to your conclusion, I'll put it to you that God can limit suffering below the threshold that Christ set. Also, if there were no diseases, no challenges of 'acts of God', not even a broken arm..that form of "heaven" would truly be boring. We would not need doctors, we would not need to learn how to predict natural disasters...indeed, we'd all be bored out of our brains. Thus, if God allows natural disasters but limits suffering below the pain threshold that He endured, can we now consider God "wholly good"?

Okay, for all practical purposes, let's start here:

https://www.unicef.org/health/childhood-diseases
https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2020posts ... llosa.html
https://raisingchildren.net.au/babies/h ... -illnesses

Now, just imagine someone going to a children's hospital and arguing that the whole point of their terrible ordeals is to minimize boredom in the world?

Sure, I'm glad hospitals like St. Jude and Shriners and Boston Childrens are around to care for these kids. But that doesn't make God's part in all of it go away. If there is one. Instead, in my view, in order to sustain their belief in a loving, just and merciful God, they can only fall back on "thank God for His mysterious ways". And in doing so they are able to sustain in turn the comforting and consoling belief in moral commandments, immortality and salvation.

In fact, what is particularly ghastly for atheists here is that if we do live in a No God universe that means all of this terrible suffering has no reason or purpose. It's just "shit happens" all the way down.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 5:48 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:32 am ME:- In answer to your conclusion, I'll put it to you that God can limit suffering below the threshold that Christ set. Also, if there were no diseases, no challenges of 'acts of God', not even a broken arm..that form of "heaven" would truly be boring. We would not need doctors, we would not need to learn how to predict natural disasters...indeed, we'd all be bored out of our brains. Thus, if God allows natural disasters but limits suffering below the pain threshold that He endured, can we now consider God "wholly good"?

Okay, for all practical purposes, let's start here:

https://www.unicef.org/health/childhood-diseases
https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2020posts ... llosa.html
https://raisingchildren.net.au/babies/h ... -illnesses

Now, just imagine someone going to a children's hospital and arguing that the whole point of their terrible ordeals is to minimize boredom in the world?

Sure, I'm glad hospitals like St. Jude and Shriners and Boston Childrens are around to care for these kids. But that doesn't make God's part in all of it go away. If there is one. Instead, in my view, in order to sustain their belief in a loving, just and merciful God, they can only fall back on "thank God for His mysterious ways". And in doing so they are able to sustain in turn the comforting and consoling belief in moral commandments, immortality and salvation.

I have to admit since knowing GOD to exist, the children thing among many other 'evils' has puzzled me the most.

One of my best friends years ago lost his young niece to leukaemia.

From what I've witnessed, 'parallel' realities - that Reality is a convoluted apparition of the Truth - I am not certain that in that little girls existence, she possibly still does exist. That's to say, cogito ergo sum - beyond that could be the GOD system leaving more DOUBT by projecting such. Indeed, perhaps truly in my friends reality, even to him, nothing happened - his niece still exists. Truly, REAL-IT-Y is weird, just ask the likes of physicist Sean Carroll when he tells us of his belief in the 'many worlds' theory.

Years ago also Stephen Fry, staunch atheist was stating something to the effect of 'how do you account of this child in Africa, losing eyesight with a parasite burrowing into the eyeball'..

There's another avenue of thought I have on all that. Since the sage confirmed to me on the night of introducing himself from the aether, that we reincarnate into circumstances we karmically deserve, based on our previous lives. Well, perhaps ...ya know, perhaps these kids were rather awful! Terrible consideration I know, but how else am I to consider these things.

Truly I believe that children's souls are taken prior to being raped and killed by the worst of wo/mans evils - YET - the perpetrator gets to enjoy their lot. Mmm, to eventually reincarnate 666 is perhaps the ultimate destination for these people no longer worth_Y of being human - that I see as a great reason GOD doesn't make itself aware to humanity as a whole - life is an ongoing TEST - i've said it before, there is great reason for DO_U_BT.

*that's entertainment, that's entertainment!!!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am   Years ago also Stephen Fry, staunch atheist was stating something to the effect of 'how do you account of this child in Africa, losing eyesight with a parasite burrowing into the eyeball'..

There's another avenue of thought I have on all that. Since the sage confirmed to me on the night of introducing himself from the aether, that we reincarnate into circumstances we karmically deserve, based on our previous lives. Well, perhaps ...ya know, perhaps these kids were rather awful! Terrible consideration I know, but how else am I to consider these things.

Look, if you are actually able to convince yourself of something like that, it can make their suffering seem so much less appalling. Right? So, after explaining to the kids above that their terrible suffering [or even deaths] has allowed us to experience much less boring lives -- while providing us with all those doctors -- many of the kids may well have deserved it, given all the terrible things they might have done in...in a past life?

As for this sage from the "aether"...? Any actual evidence that this is more than just something you believe :in your head"?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am Truly I believe that children's souls are taken prior to being raped and killed by the worst of wo/mans evils - YET - the perpetrator gets to enjoy their lot. Mmm, to eventually reincarnate 666 is perhaps the ultimate destination for these people no longer worth_Y of being human - that I see as a great reason GOD doesn't make itself aware to humanity as a whole - life is an ongoing TEST - i've said it before, there is great reason for DO_U_BT.

Right, and you are actually able to demonstrate this...how? And while any number of men and women might be deemed existentially evil, none of them have the inherent power to stop this pain and suffering as God does. In fact, if it was found out that a man or a women could have stopped the pain and suffering endured by a particular child but did nothing they would be roundly condemned. 

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am *that's entertainment, that's entertainment!!!  

Actually, when it comes to the terrible suffering endured by kids, that has never been entertaining to me.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:12 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am   Years ago also Stephen Fry, staunch atheist was stating something to the effect of 'how do you account of this child in Africa, losing eyesight with a parasite burrowing into the eyeball'..

There's another avenue of thought I have on all that. Since the sage confirmed to me on the night of introducing himself from the aether, that we reincarnate into circumstances we karmically deserve, based on our previous lives. Well, perhaps ...ya know, perhaps these kids were rather awful! Terrible consideration I know, but how else am I to consider these things.

Look, if you are actually able to convince yourself of something like that, it can make their suffering seem so much less appalling. Right? So, after explaining to the kids above that their terrible suffering [or even deaths] has allowed us to experience much less boring lives -- while providing us with all those doctors -- many of the kids may well have deserved it, given all the terrible things they might have done in...in a past life?

As for this sage from the "aether"...? Any actual evidence that this is more than just something you believe :in your head"?

If you climbed out of bed one morning and heard a clear voice state: "Tonight, bad luck"
That night someone attacks you with a baseball bat and fractures your arm, breaks your nose.
You come out of hospital days later, and find you have no pain killers beyond f'ing paracetamol-can't sleep from the extreme pain
You say a prayer and a voice AGAIN from the aether states "would you like me to erase that"
All your pain goes, much relief - but then after about 10 mins the pain returns and the voice states "Do you understand"
Me - "no you f'ing &^&*Y mother fker !! Get rid of the pain" <-- i think i understand now, didnt at the time.
I ask "who are you are you GOD?"
Voice from aether states: "I am a sage"
I only know sage is a herb at the time, I consider looking it up in my dictionary - RIGHT knee is tapped indicating, right, do that.
"An extremely wise person"

SO.

If you experienced all that, you would know it all to be real rather than just your brain farting at you. The sage is real, the GOD system is real.

iambiguous wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am Truly I believe that children's souls are taken prior to being raped and killed by the worst of wo/mans evils - YET - the perpetrator gets to enjoy their lot. Mmm, to eventually reincarnate 666 is perhaps the ultimate destination for these people no longer worth_Y of being human - that I see as a great reason GOD doesn't make itself aware to humanity as a whole - life is an ongoing TEST - i've said it before, there is great reason for DO_U_BT.

Right, and you are actually able to demonstrate this...how?

Demonstrate what I wrote in that statement? Of course not!! I don't know if that's true, just a theory based on some reasoning since knowing an omnipotent GOD exists. It's like we truly are in a virtual world..the stuff I've seen would blow your mind.

I guess what I am saying is, it's PLAUSIBLE.

iambiguous wrote:And while any number of men and women might be deemed existentially evil, none of them have the inherent power to stop this pain and suffering as God does. In fact, if it was found out that a man or a women could have stopped the pain and suffering endured by a particular child but did nothing they would be roundly condemned.

Sure, but part of the point I am trying to make is that we truly can't always believe what we witness. That is to say, all the light, sound - information that is input to our consciousness is at the behest of this GOD entity - I am still open to consider that we are merely in a simulation, however I am sticking with the GOD is divine aspect, since what I was told about Christ (*from my sage via aether) and well, they made the life of Brian suffer massively!! I am pretty certain if it's all just some ridiculous simulation that Christ would not have done anything, nor would I have suffered to such an extent - to learn of the system. What kind of coders created it, i'll kill the little nerds! Nope, it's deeper than that. GOD operates akin to A.I. - very fast, instant fast in fact, clinical. I've tested IT extensively.

iambiguous wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 10, 2025 8:03 am *that's entertainment, that's entertainment!!!  

Actually, when it comes to the terrible suffering endured by kids, that has never been entertaining to me.

I agree.

Once when GOD\sage was screwing with me, i said "I'm your entertainment" and the voice replied, "Don't flatter yourself".

I can only hope doctors are operating on 'morphs', NPCs in cases where a child cannot be cured.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has lost a child family member. I don't know of any in my extended family.

It is so simple and easy, really.

The reason evil exists is because through the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God you adult human beings were created evolving with the ability to create and do evil

Evil never existed until adult human beings started evil.

The reason God allowed/ed evil is for the very simple reason that you human beings are freely allowed to do whatever you want, and because you human beings best learn from your mistakes you end up learning, and consciously, knowing Right, from Wrong, eventually.

..so we human beings created a parasite that burrows into a child's eye?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:41 pm

..so we human beings created a parasite that burrows into a child's eye?

What are you referring to here, exactly?

What even is 'evil' to you, exactly?

The justification of God by His followers is on the same spectrum as the justification of any evil. Just at the extreme end. Beyond justifying Hitler, genocide, unjust war, social injustice, male violence, slavery, sexism, any and every abuse of power. Which He sums synergistically.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:15 pm The justification of God by His followers is on the same spectrum as the justification of any evil. Just at the extreme end. Beyond justifying Hitler, genocide, unjust war, social injustice, male violence, slavery, sexism, any and every abuse of power. Which He sums synergistically.

I dedicate this song to Martin Peter Clarke the Third for his wise words..


Androcies - Two Days of Reckoning (*based on the poem by Andrew Seas)
https://www.androcies.com/Music/Two_Day ... koning.mp3


PS. He has me on ignore, likely due to insistence of my having gnosis! Please, if someone would be so kind as to quote me, he assures me then he will get to see, or in this case, hear true wisdom.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:48 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 5:15 pm The justification of God by His followers is on the same spectrum as the justification of any evil. Just at the extreme end. Beyond justifying Hitler, genocide, unjust war, social injustice, male violence, slavery, sexism, any and every abuse of power. Which He sums synergistically.

I dedicate this song to Martin Peter Clarke the Third for his wise words..


Androcies - Two Days of Reckoning (*based on the poem by Andrew Seas)
https://www.androcies.com/Music/Two_Day ... koning.mp3


PS. *He has me on ignore, likely due to insistence of my having gnosis! Please, **if someone would be so kind as to quote me, he assures me then he will get to see, or in this case, hear true wisdom.

*Don't feel bad. I expect to join you shortly.

**Done!

Cheers Henry, yes, nob alert!!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:23 pm Cheers Henry, yes, nob alert!!

Nah, just another militant God hater. Garden variety.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 2:41 pm

..so we human beings created a parasite that burrows into a child's eye?

Once again 'this one' can not back up and support a single thing it claims, here.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:26 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 11, 2025 6:23 pm Cheers Henry, yes, nob alert!!

Nah, just another militant God hater. Garden variety.

Aye, I hate the sick, arbitrary, murderous, grandiose, inadequate, projected, bastard creation of our two year old id. Who dares to judge us so that He can forgive those who beg enough. Who wouldn't? Who doesn't? How could anyone sane not?

I'd love transcendent Love. But there's no warrant to. Only yearning.