Philosophy Now Forum

Peano Arithmetic theory (PA) was originally proposed by Giuseppe Peano.

Imagine that Giuseppe Peano were a drug-addicted alcoholic gambler who lived in a brothel, would that change my opinion on PA?

No, absolutely not.

I do not care whatsoever about the private life of who exactly originally proposed PA.

PA is superbly fit for purpose, regardless of how flawed Giuseppe Peano's life may or may not have been. I have never even looked into that. That is how little I care.

PA is a deductively-closed theory that nicely captures the nature of the natural numbers.

A religion is a deductively-closed moral doctrine.

Moses proposed one in the Torah, and it works like a charm. His doctrine is now known as Jewish law. Muhammad proposed one in the Quran, and it is equallly superb. His doctrine is now known as Islamic law.

Do I care about Moses' or Muhammad' private lives or their biographies? No, sorry, I don't.

Christ, on the other hand, did not propose a new axiomatization. In fact, he was merely a user of Moses' moral system. Christ was also a staunch advocate of Jewish law. There is obviously some merit to that, but his followers clearly exaggerate his otherwise modest contribution to the field of morality. In some sense, he is even barely worth mentioning.

Christianity has a lot in common with Stalinism.

Christianity is not particularly much about keeping a particular moral doctrine. It is mostly a personality cult that revolves around worshipping Christ as if he were a god. Christ obviously wasn't a god, because no man is. Christ even wasn't the original source for his own morality, because Moses was.

When Christians criticize the person of Muhammad, they incorrectly project their personality cult of Christ onto Islam. Unlike Christianity, however, Islam is not some form of Stalinism. It is not about worshipping a man as if he were a god.

Just like you won't manage to discredit PA merely by shit talking Giuseppe Peano, you will not succeed in discrediting Islamic doctrine by shit talking Muhammad.

Religion is simply not about worshipping a man as if he were a god. That is not religion. That is Stalinism.

Religion is about applying a deductively-closed moral doctrine onto one's own life.

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:25 am Peano Arithmetic theory (PA) was originally proposed by Giuseppe Peano.

Imagine that Giuseppe Peano were a drug-addicted alcoholic gambler who lived in a brothel, would that change my opinion on PA?

No, absolutely not.

I do not care whatsoever about the private life of who exactly originally proposed PA.

PA is superbly fit for purpose, regardless of how flawed Giuseppe Peano's life may or may not have been. I have never even looked into that. That is how little I care.

PA is a deductively-closed theory that nicely captures the nature of the natural numbers.

A religion is a deductively-closed moral doctrine.

Moses proposed one in the Torah, and it works like a charm. His doctrine is now known as Jewish law. Muhammad proposed one in the Quran, and it is equallly superb. His doctrine is now known as Islamic law.

Do I care about Moses' or Muhammad' private lives or their biographies? No, sorry, I don't.

Christ, on the other hand, did not propose a new axiomatization. In fact, he was merely a user of Moses' moral system. Christ was also a staunch advocate of Jewish law. There is obviously some merit to that, but his followers clearly exaggerate his otherwise modest contribution to the field of morality. In some sense, he is even barely worth mentioning.

Christianity has a lot in common with Stalinism.

see
Christianity Has Deductive Closure
viewtopic.php?p=761802#p761802

Christianity is not particularly much about keeping a particular moral doctrine. It is mostly a personality cult that revolves around worshipping Christ as if he were a god. Christ obviously wasn't a god, because no man is. Christ even wasn't the original source for his own morality, because Moses was.

When Christians criticize the person of Muhammad, they incorrectly project their personality cult of Christ onto Islam. Unlike Christianity, however, Islam is not some form of Stalinism. It is not about worshipping a man as if he were a god.

Just like you won't manage to discredit PA merely by shit talking Giuseppe Peano, you will not succeed in discrediting Islamic doctrine by shit talking Muhammad.

Religion is simply not about worshipping a man as if he were a god. That is not religion. That is Stalinism.

Religion is about applying a deductively-closed moral doctrine onto one's own life.

Something is wrong with your cognitive and intellectual capacity.
You wrongly focused on forms of Christianity and not on the essence or substance of Christianity-proper.

I believe most Christians do not accept Jesus Christ the human person as God per se. Christ is merely the 'son' not in the biological sense but in the spiritual sense.
The Analogy is like, God is H2O while the Holy Spirit is liquid water, and Christ is a large ice-berg; both latter are the different forms of the same substance of God. The rest of Human being are the individual droplets of water.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 6:00 am I believe most Christians do not accept Jesus Christ the human person as God per se.

I think that many Christians really believe that Christ would be God himself.

It is effectively a cult of personality not unlike Stalin's. They worship a man as their god.

When you think of it, what they do, is actually scary.

I do not want to have anything to do with that.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 6:00 am I believe most Christians do not accept Jesus Christ the human person as God per se.

You believe that, why should I? Most Christians I have met in my life have either explicitly indicated they believe he is literally divine, the son of God (and also God himself), or indicated nothing either way. Only a small handful of self described Christians in my life have indicated they believe anything other than the literal truth of that, and most of those people I met on philosophy forums, so they aren't representative of typical Christians.

godelian wrote:Christianity is a personality cult and not a religion

What's wrong atheist? You appear to be obsessed with the power of my GOD, Jesus the Christ.

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:25 am Christ obviously wasn't a god, because no man is.

So you don't believe in the Torah? - I thought you said something to the effect of Judaism & Islam are infallible, but Christianity is not.

Genesis 1:26–27 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

GOD, created man in his own image, thus I am a man, thus GOD system had incarnated himself as a man, possibly before the Earth was created.

godelian wrote:I think that many Christians really believe that Christ would be God himself.

I never came across a Christian that said they did, but then, I never befriended Christians. All my friends were faithless atheists pretty much, open to concepts, just not particularly interested. More interested in partying in between working hard, stealing (borrowing) the odd car to get home which was too expensive from the city to where we lived via taxi, ya know, basic Aussie stuff.

Eventually, through my own reasoning it was obvious. GOD being a MAN, would not send another to do what He intended - crucifixion.

He stated he was merely the son of GOD and the son of man at the time, for reasons that should be obvious.

godelian wrote:They worship a man as their god.

I don't worship GOD nor any man. I love Christ with all my heart, He seems to be happy with that.

In fact, when I was put through the TEST_A-MEN-Ts GOD showed me more respect when I told IT to fuck off. (once it pushed me to the EDGE - The Tree of KNOW_LEDGE).

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:23 am You appear to be obsessed with the power of my GOD, Jesus the Christ.

He was a man.

I am not interested in worshipping a man as if he were a god.

I don't want to worship Stalin as a god. I don't want to worship the emperor of Japan as a god. Every time people do things like that, things inevitably go wrong.

Seriously, there is simply no way that I would ever do that.

Actually, I even find that utmost reprehensible behavior. I find it highly immoral. Why not worship Donald Trump as a god, since you are at it anyway?

Any moral theory worth its salt must contain the rule that it is explicitly forbidden to worship any man as a god. Strictly banned!

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 7:07 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 6:00 am I believe most Christians do not accept Jesus Christ the human person as God per se.

I think that many Christians really believe that Christ would be God himself.

It is effectively a cult of personality not unlike Stalin's. They worship a man as their god.

When you think of it, what they do, is actually scary.

I do not want to have anything to do with that.

Where did you get that idea?

The analogy is like say,
A dictator and his son is ruling a country.
Surely the obedient citizens would not regard as the father holding the ultimate power.
The son would have direct access to the father and leverage on his father power to do what he wants but he cannot usurp the power of his dictator father, else the father will surely put him in his place.

Here's ChatGpt:

................."
ChatGpt Wrote:
The claim that "Christ would be God Himself" is not supported by scriptural evidence and contradicts historical Christian doctrine;

The Gospels do not explicitly equate Christ with God the Father.

Early Christian belief and Christ's own words maintain a distinction between Christ and God.

1. Scriptural Evidence Against Christ Being Identical to God the Father
If Christ were identical to God Himself, then there should be clear self-identification statements from Christ in the Gospels. However, the following passages indicate a distinction rather than identity:

Christ Subordinates Himself to the Father
John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."

If Christ were literally identical to God the Father, he could not logically say that the Father is greater than him.

John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing."

This shows that Christ’s actions are dependent on the Father’s will, which contradicts the idea of absolute identity.

John 17:3 – "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Christ separates himself from "the only true God," indicating that he is not identical to God.

Christ Prays to the Father
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

If Christ were literally God Himself, there would be no reason to pray to the Father as a separate entity.

Luke 23:46 – "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

This makes no sense if Christ and God were identical—who is Christ committing his spirit to?

Christ Distinguishes Between Himself and God
Mark 10:18 – "Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone."

If Christ were God, he would not have rejected the attribution of goodness only to God.

John 20:17 – "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Christ explicitly refers to "my God," demonstrating that he sees himself as distinct from God.

2. Early Christian Belief Maintained a Distinction
Even in early Christian theology, the distinction between Christ and God was maintained:

✔ 1 Corinthians 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Paul explicitly differentiates between one God (the Father) and one Lord (Jesus Christ).

✔ Acts 2:22 – "Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him."

Jesus is described as a man approved by God, not God Himself.

✔ Philippians 2:6-7 – "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant."

This verse reinforces that Christ is not equal to God but subordinate to Him.

3. Countering the Argument That "Many Christians Believe It"
Even if many Christians believe Christ is God Himself, belief alone does not determine truth. The evidence from the Gospels contradicts such a view.

In fact, most Christian denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) do not teach that Christ is simply identical to God the Father. Instead, they adhere to Trinitarian doctrine, which states:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons

They share the same divine essence but are not identical

Christ is fully divine but not the same person as the Father

The idea that "Christ is God Himself" is often a misinterpretation of Trinitarian theology or a misunderstanding of scriptural nuance.

Conclusion
✔ The Gospels and early Christian writings consistently distinguish between Christ and God.
✔ Christ himself prays to God, submits to God, and calls the Father "greater" than himself.
✔ The idea that Christ is literally God the Father contradicts mainstream Christian theology.
✔ Even the doctrine of the Trinity maintains a distinction between Christ and the Father.

Thus, the claim that "Christ would be God Himself" is not supported by scriptural evidence and contradicts historical Christian doctrine."

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 2:57 am Thus, the claim that "Christ would be God Himself" is not supported by scriptural evidence and contradicts historical Christian doctrine."

Not so sure about that:

ChatGPT: Do Christians worship Jesus?

Yes, most Christians worship Jesus as God. In Christian belief, Jesus is considered the Son of God and part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Many Christians pray to Jesus, sing hymns about him, and seek to follow his teachings.

However, different Christian groups may emphasize this worship in different ways. Some focus more on worshiping God the Father through Jesus, while others directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior.

It is a personality cult similar to worshipping Stalin or the emperor of Japan as a god.

godelian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:25 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 2:57 am Thus, the claim that "Christ would be God Himself" is not supported by scriptural evidence and contradicts historical Christian doctrine."

Not so sure about that:

ChatGPT: Do Christians worship Jesus?

Yes, most Christians worship Jesus as God. In Christian belief, Jesus is considered the Son of God and part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Many Christians pray to Jesus, sing hymns about him, and seek to follow his teachings.

However, different Christian groups may emphasize this worship in different ways. Some focus more on worshiping God the Father through Jesus, while others directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior.

It is a personality cult similar to worshipping Stalin or the emperor of Japan as a god.

That's rich, coming from someone who follows a paedophile who started a political idiology that loathes women and music. WTF is wrong with you?

accelafine wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:30 am That's rich, coming from someone who follows a paedophile who started a political idiology that loathes women and music. WTF is wrong with you?

The way in which you talk is so obnoxious that every man who has ever made the mistake of showing any romantic interest in you, has run away, head over heels.

By now, you surely know:

The man will leave you and he will never come back.

It is always like that, and there is a good reason for that. That is why you are alone, and why you will always be alone. It is not that you choose to be alone. It is simply that nobody wants to be with you.

godelian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:25 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 2:57 am Thus, the claim that "Christ would be God Himself" is not supported by scriptural evidence and contradicts historical Christian doctrine."

Not so sure about that:

ChatGPT: Do Christians worship Jesus?

Yes, most Christians worship Jesus as God. In Christian belief, Jesus is considered the Son of God and part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Many Christians pray to Jesus, sing hymns about him, and seek to follow his teachings.

However, different Christian groups may emphasize this worship in different ways. Some focus more on worshiping God the Father through Jesus, while others directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior.

It is a personality cult similar to worshipping Stalin or the emperor of Japan as a god.

You are being fallacious in every corner and is insulting your own intelligence:

VA to ChatGpt wrote:I believe there are nuances to the above.
Anyone can believe whatever they want.
To directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior is not rational in accordance to the doctrines of Christ's FS.
How can I address the above properly?

ChatGpt wrote:ChatGPT said:

Thus, the interlocutor's claim is a category error, misapplying the concept of personality cults to theological worship.


You can address this issue by distinguishing between:

1. What Christ Himself Taught About Worship
2. The Theological Implications of Worshiping Jesus
3. The Difference Between Rational Worship and Personality Cults

1. What Christ Himself Taught About Worship
Jesus never explicitly commanded worship of himself in the way God is worshiped. Instead:

He directed worship to the Father: "The true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth." (John 4:23)

He prayed to the Father (John 17:1–3) and taught others to do the same (Matthew 6:9).

He rejected being worshiped as a mere human leader: "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (Mark 10:18).

Thus, from Christ’s own teachings, worship should be directed to God (the Father), not to himself as a human figure.

2. The Theological Implications of Worshiping Jesus
Christian doctrine holds that Jesus is divine (John 1:1, Colossians 2:9).

However, his divine role is within the framework of the Trinity, meaning he does not act independently of the Father.

Worship of Jesus makes sense only if it is within the context of his unity with God ("I and the Father are one" – John 10:30).

In this case, Christian worship of Jesus is not a personality cult because it is not worshiping Jesus as an independent entity, but as an inseparable part of God’s divine nature.

3. Distinguishing Rational Worship from a Personality Cult
Your interlocutor compares worshiping Jesus to a personality cult (Stalin, Japanese emperors, etc.), but this analogy fails because:

Personality cults focus on a human leader’s personal power → Jesus rejected earthly power (John 18:36).

Personality cults demand submission to a person as the ultimate authority → Jesus always pointed beyond himself to God (John 5:30).

Personality cults exist to glorify a single leader → Christian worship is centered on God’s salvation plan, not just on Jesus as a person.

Conclusion
If worship of Jesus means worshiping him as an independent figure, this contradicts his own teachings.

However, if worship of Jesus is within the Christian Framework and System (CFS), where Jesus is worshiped as part of God’s divine nature, then it is theologically justified and rational within that system.

Personality cults glorify human rulers for power; Christian worship (when properly understood) glorifies God through Jesus, which is distinct from a personality cult.

Thus, the interlocutor's claim is a category error, misapplying the concept of personality cults to theological worship.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:42 am To directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior is not rational in accordance to the doctrines of Christ's FS.
How can I address the above properly?

By admitting the truth.

Worshipping a man as if he were a god, may not be rational, but that is still the essence of Christianity.

Christianity is a personality cult. No two ways around that.

godelian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:58 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:42 am To directly worship Jesus as Lord and Savior is not rational in accordance to the doctrines of Christ's FS.
How can I address the above properly?

By admitting the truth.

Worshipping a man as if he were a god, may not be rational, but that is still the essence of Christianity.

Christianity is a personality cult. No two ways around that.

As usual you are making noises without arguments.

Here's ChatGpt's view of the situation:

VA to ChatGpt: Despite the rational presentation and arguments, my interlocutor is very adamant with his position:

1. If Your Goal Is Meaningful Discussion
If your interlocutor is open to rational discussion, you can ask clarifying questions to expose weaknesses in their argument:

“How do you define a personality cult?” → This forces them to specify their criteria.

“If Christianity is a personality cult, why did Jesus reject earthly power and direct worship to God?” → This highlights a contradiction in their view.

“Would you say that worshiping Jesus as part of the Trinity is the same as worshiping a mere human?” → This helps distinguish Christian doctrine from emperor worship.

By making them examine their own assumptions, they may either refine their argument or realize its flaws.

2. If Your Goal Is to End a Stalemate
If they are unwilling to engage logically and just repeating their claim without considering counterpoints, you can:

Politely disengage: “I see we have fundamental disagreements. I respect your view, even if I find it oversimplified.”

Shift to a meta-discussion: “Are you open to considering different perspectives, or is your mind made up?” This reveals whether further discussion is even worthwhile.

3. If Your Goal Is to Maintain Your Own Energy and Focus
If they are being stubborn for the sake of argument, it may not be worth your time. In that case:

Ignore them if their responses show no attempt at genuine discussion.

Refocus your efforts on more productive conversations.

Final Thought
Some people are not looking for understanding but just want to push a narrative. If your interlocutor is not engaging in good faith, continuing the discussion may just be a waste of time.

godelian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:40 am

accelafine wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 3:30 am That's rich, coming from someone who follows a paedophile who started a political idiology that loathes women and music. WTF is wrong with you?

The way in which you talk is so obnoxious that every man who has ever made the mistake of showing any romantic interest in you, has run away, head over heels.

By now, you surely know:

The man will leave you and he will never come back.

It is always like that, and there is a good reason for that. That is why you are alone, and why you will always be alone. It is not that you choose to be alone. It is simply that nobody wants to be with you.

Hilarious ad hominems, but what does any of that have to do with this (apart from the fact that you are proving my point)?

Thank you, little paedophile-worshipper (and practitioner of?)

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 4:16 am “If Christianity is a personality cult, why did Jesus reject earthly power and direct worship to God?” → This highlights a contradiction in their view.

I did not ever say that Christ was interested in establishing a personality cult around his own person.

That is what his followers did, but that is undoubtedly not what he would have wanted. People can worship a man as their god without ever getting his permission for doing that.

If Christ can be worshipped as a god, then why not the emperor of Japan? If your doctrine allows for personality cults, then where do you draw the line?

I simply do not want to pray to a man. I do not want to pray to the sun either, or to an animal. Prehistoric people had holy birds and holy cats. Good for them!