Philosophy Now Forum

Recently an atheist friend of mine told me that he is now convinced that the Shroud of Turin is indeed the burial shroud of Christ.

I had heard of the shroud probably since being in a Catholic school, thus a long time ago, and I always thought that is was proven to be a fake from around the 15th century.

I watched the video below and I now am also convinced that it truly is a ‘miraculous’ object.

Please do watch the entire video if you are going to make comment within this thread, also the second video regarding a letter Pontius Pilate sent to Caesar regarding Jesus Christ is fascinating.


Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s



Acta Pilate (Letter of Pilate to Caesar about Jesus, His Crucifixion & Resurrection) - ARCHKO VOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUJGce ... ex=30&t=0s

www.androcies.com

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:09 am ...

It doesn't really matter. You still haven't figured out that the entire point of faith is simply a pragmatic solution to the stupid Western idea that beliefs require justification.

They do if you are possessed by the profoundly dumb idea of mirroring reality. They don't if you simply use them as heuristics for navigating it. Evidence merely serves as self-justficiation, but you never needed any because faith requires none.

The Western intellectual tradition's emphasis on proving beliefs has actually obscured the pragmatic value of faith as a way of engaging with the world and organically developing know-how.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:52 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:09 am ...

It doesn't really matter. You still haven't figured out that the entire point of faith is simply a pragmatic solution to the stupid Western idea that beliefs require justification.

They do if you are possessed by the profoundly dumb idea of mirroring reality. They don't if you simply use them as heuristics for navigating it.

Evidence merely serves as self-justficiation, but you never needed any because faith requires none.

All of which is irrelevant. I am making no debate re faith n evidence.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:58 am All of which is irrelevant. I am making no debate re faith n evidence.

You are weighing evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud.

Your weighing apparatus is ultimately deteermined by your temperament; when in practice the authenticity of the shroud (even if 100% established) would neither alter the beleifs of a theist; nor a secularist.

So the entire quest for truth is irrelevant.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:00 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:58 am All of which is irrelevant. I am making no debate re faith n evidence.

You are weighing evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud.

Your weighing apparatus is ultimately deteermined by your temperament; when in practice the authenticity of the shroud (even if 100% established) would neither alter the beleifs of a theist; nor a secularist.

So the entire quest for truth is irrelevant.

Yes, I understand that there is some weighted bias for a person of faith to accept the evidence, but that's not any point to my OP. I did open with the statement that an atheist friend of mine is now convinced by the evidence. The fact that he WAS an atheist prior to this video made me more inclined to watch the entire video for myself.
I didn't require the video as evidence of Christ and what he went through, since evidence of God has been provided to me directly since 1997. I'm just glad that the shroud evidence does convince some to the story of Christ. The presenter in the video was close to tears towards the end.

You could question yourself as to Y God leaves the entire planet in doubt, rather that proving to all that it does exist...any thoughts?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:13 am Yes, I understand that there is some weighted bias for a person of faith to accept the evidence, but that's not any point to my OP. I did open with the statement that an atheist friend of mine is now convinced by the evidence.

To my point: What is it that he's convinced of? That this is Jesus's burrial cloth (which is mundane); or that Jesus resurrected (which is the extraordinary beleif)?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:13 am I'm just glad that the shroud evidence does convince some to the story of Christ.

No self-respecting skeptic denies any part of the historical events. They all get bogged down by the miraculous claims that have gone viral as a result thereof.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:13 am You could question yourself as to Y God leaves the entire planet in doubt, rather that proving to all that it does exist...any thoughts?

I don't find the question very interesting. I don't have a mirror-of-reality mindset.

I am an Orthodox Christian but that's not an epistemic/propositional thing about God's existence.
That's an "I understand the psychological side-effects of having this software in my head, so I've installed it". Alongside all the other software in my head.

Faith is more useful than doubt when trying to move forward in life.

Ask me if I truly believe that Jesus resurrected, and the only reason I say "yes" (and why I choose to believe it) is because the alternative belief requires me to become misanthropic and gaslight all the testimonies. Which is to say "I find doubt and debate on such matters to be a stupid waste of time".

To any nature-mirroring-idiot, what that "really means" is that I don't really believe it. So it just becames a stupid game of semantics over what beliefs are.

Why do you need 'evidence'? It thought you were a close personal friend of jebus himself. Go ask him then.

Btw, the shroud is ridiculous hogwash. Made in mediaeval times when they thought jebus would have looked like an old long-haired hippy.
The jebus in the story died as a young man. Only 32.

accelafine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:22 am Why do you need 'evidence'? It thought you were a close personal friend of jebus himself. Go ask him then.

Btw, the shroud is ridiculous hogwash. Made in mediaeval times when they thought jebus would have looked like an old long-haired hippy.
The jebus in the story died as a young man. Only 32.

Watch the video first, then provide your reasoning as to how in the 15th century they could produce the negative image of Christ. If you watch the video it is clear that the way the fibres of the cloth have been 'exposed' to some form of radiation, that it would be difficult to achieve with current technology.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:26 am

accelafine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:22 am Why do you need 'evidence'? It thought you were a close personal friend of jebus himself. Go ask him then.

Btw, the shroud is ridiculous hogwash. Made in mediaeval times when they thought jebus would have looked like an old long-haired hippy.
The jebus in the story died as a young man. Only 32.

Watch the video first, then provide your reasoning as to how in the 15th century they could produce the negative image of Christ. If you watch the video it is clear that the way the fibres of the cloth have been 'exposed' to some form of radiation, that it would be difficult to achieve with current technology.

FFS. It's been done to death. It's been tested to within an inch of its life. They were experts at making these kind of religious 'relics' in mediaeval times. They were worth a lot of money to churches.

It was carbon dated. That should have been the end of it but no, of course relgious nuts are going to believe what they want to believe. There's no point in even discussing it, just as conspiracy theorists have no interest in actual evidence.

FFS - just lost my original reply and have to type it all up again!!

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:18 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:13 am Yes, I understand that there is some weighted bias for a person of faith to accept the evidence, but that's not any point to my OP. I did open with the statement that an atheist friend of mine is now convinced by the evidence.

To my point: What is it that he's convinced of? That this is Jesus's burrial cloth (which is mundane); or that Jesus resurrected (which is the extraordinary beleif)?

He's convinced that the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and that something beyond any ability of humans at the time created the image.
I haven't questioned him to whether he believes in the resurrection etc..

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:13 am You could question yourself as to Y God leaves the entire planet in doubt, rather that proving to all that it does exist...any thoughts?

I don't find the question very interesting.[/quote]

Really? It is THE biggest question of our time in relation to God. That this entity claims to exist and refuses to provide evidence to all of its existence and instead requires FAITH. The REASON for that is of great importance imo.

accelafine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:30 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:26 am

accelafine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:22 am Why do you need 'evidence'? It thought you were a close personal friend of jebus himself. Go ask him then.

Btw, the shroud is ridiculous hogwash. Made in mediaeval times when they thought jebus would have looked like an old long-haired hippy.
The jebus in the story died as a young man. Only 32.

Watch the video first, then provide your reasoning as to how in the 15th century they could produce the negative image of Christ. If you watch the video it is clear that the way the fibres of the cloth have been 'exposed' to some form of radiation, that it would be difficult to achieve with current technology.

FFS. It's been done to death. It's been tested to within an inch of its life. They were experts at making these kind of religious 'relics' in mediaeval times. They were worth a lot of money to churches.

It was carbon dated. That should have been the end of it but no, of course relgious nuts are going to believe what they want to believe. There's no point in even discussing it, just as conspiracy theorists have no interest in actual evidence.

Please, do yourself a favour and watch the bloody video. All the points you are making were precisely where I originally stood re the shroud..that it's bollocks

Watch the video and THEN get back to me..

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am He's convinced that the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and that something beyond any ability of humans at the time created the image.
I haven't questioned him to whether he believes in the resurrection etc..

To my point (and I'd bet you a beer on this) the artifact changes nothing in terms of the miraculousness claims. He still self-identifies as an atheist.

Jesus's burrial cloth? Cool. And then?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am Really? It is THE biggest question of our time in relation to God. That this entity claims to exist and refuses to provide evidence to all of its existence and instead requires FAITH. The REASON for that is of great importance imo.

Don't care. Religion is to be understood through the traditions and practices of its followers. You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

This God-stuff is secondary.

Instead of taking sides in a pointless culture war, I much prefer to piss everybody off anyway. I am a God-loving atheist. Jesus is my witness.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:39 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am He's convinced that the shroud is the burial cloth of Christ and that something beyond any ability of humans at the time created the image.
I haven't questioned him to whether he believes in the resurrection etc..

To my point (and I'd bet you a beer on this) the artifact changes nothing in terms of the miraculousness claims. He still self-identifies as an atheist.

I did ask him whether he is now a Christian, his reply is that he's open to the idea. I did advise him to read Matthew.

Personally, I don't really care whether people believe or not.

I get the feeling from an earlier statement that you have not watched the video. I started this thread to see what people think of the evidence per the shroud - the negative image produced via some form of radiation.

The carbon dating done in the late 70s must have used part of the cloth that was restored in the 15th Century. Cameras did not exist then to comprehend a negative image and certainly no tech could have provided the embedded grayscale coding that using NASA tech can provide the contours required to build 3D image.

The shroud is REMARKABLE..that is the only reason I created this thread - I'd like others opinions, in particular, those of the atheists.

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:34 am Really? It is THE biggest question of our time in relation to God. That this entity claims to exist and refuses to provide evidence to all of its existence and instead requires FAITH. The REASON for that is of great importance imo.

Don't care. Religion is to be understood through the traditions and practices of its followers.

I don't care that you don't care.

To not care is to fail to understand the reasoning for God's insistence of FAITH v DOUBT ---> THE MOST IMPORTANT concepts to the Y of GOD.

Skepdick wrote:You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

Rubbish.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am I get the feeling from an earlier statement that you have not watched the video. I started this thread to see what people think of the evidence per the shroud - the negative image produced via some form of radiation.

I clicked on the link and the progress bar was at 45% or so. Tells me I got bored.

Like I said - the only reason one is arguing for; or against the authenticity is temperament. The facts don't matter.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am To not care is to fail to understand the reasoning for God's insistence of FAITH v DOUBT ---> THE MOST IMPORTANT concepts to the Y of GOD.

*yawn*

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:18 am Faith is more useful than doubt when trying to move forward in life.

You can sprinkle whatever theology you want on this; and giftwrap it for the more gullible.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am

Skepdick wrote:You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

Rubbish.

Well, then you are the perfect sucker to fall for inconsequential theological nonsense.

An armchair Christian.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:01 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am I get the feeling from an earlier statement that you have not watched the video. I started this thread to see what people think of the evidence per the shroud - the negative image produced via some form of radiation.

I clicked on the link and the progress bar was at 45% or so. Tells me I got bored.

Thanks, I didn't real eyes the URL included the time!

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am To not care is to fail to understand the reasoning for God's insistence of FAITH v DOUBT ---> THE MOST IMPORTANT concepts to the Y of GOD.

*yawn*

ditto.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:18 am Faith is more useful than doubt when trying to move forward in life.

No, you're missing the key: Gnosis v Faith...as in Y would God leave people only with their faith if they choose to believe rather than giving all gnosis, knowledge of its existence. There is a far bigger reason than what you allude to.

Skepdick wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:54 am

Skepdick wrote:You believe when you adopt those traditions/practices.

Rubbish.

Well, then you are the perfect sucker to fall for religion.

Eh? To the contrary. I am a Christian because I believe in the life of Christ...I don't need to adopt any of MAN's versions of Christianity to consider myself a Christian.