Philosophy Now Forum

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 12:29 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 12:22 pmWhat you’re calling freedom—innovation, creativity, overcoming obstacles—is itself the product of deterministic factors: unique combinations of genetics, environment, and experiences. These factors don’t diminish human achievement; they provide the framework within which it occurs.

You don't know that--and you can't prove it if you did know it. Freedom is in spite of determinism, not because of it.

To be Free, is to be Un-determined.

Wizard22, the claim that "to be free is to be un-determined" raises an important question: what does it actually mean for something to be "un-determined"? If by "un-determined," you mean actions that arise without cause, you’re proposing something that contradicts not only physics but also basic logic. An uncaused action would be completely random—something arising from nowhere, influenced by nothing. How could such randomness ever resemble freedom or intentionality?

What you describe as "freedom in spite of determinism" is more likely a subjective experience—our sense of making choices or taking control. But that feeling doesn’t mean the underlying process is free from causation. Just as the laws of nature govern physical systems, the same principles guide the neural, genetic, and environmental factors that create your experience of agency.

To argue that freedom exists outside of determinism is to assert that actions can happen independently of the causes that give rise to them. If that were true, we would have to abandon the very framework that allows us to understand and predict reality—including the framework that gives us science, technology, and reason itself. That’s a high price to pay for preserving an unprovable notion of freedom.

The real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

In the "Can the Secularists be Trusted?" thread, BigMike made the following claim/conclusion upon debating Determinism vs. Free-Will:

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pmThe real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

To Mike and PN Forum Users:

Do you agree with these claims/conclusions?

Is Freedom (aka. "Free-Will) the 'inevitable' result of "More Determinism"? And if so, how? How does "more determinism" = "more freedom"?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:01 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 12:29 pm
You don't know that--and you can't prove it if you did know it. Freedom is in spite of determinism, not because of it.

To be Free, is to be Un-determined.

Wizard22, the claim that "to be free is to be un-determined" raises an important question: what does it actually mean for something to be "un-determined"? If by "un-determined," you mean actions that arise without cause, you’re proposing something that contradicts not only physics but also basic logic. An uncaused action would be completely random—something arising from nowhere, influenced by nothing. How could such randomness ever resemble freedom or intentionality?

What you describe as "freedom in spite of determinism" is more likely a subjective experience—our sense of making choices or taking control. But that feeling doesn’t mean the underlying process is free from causation. Just as the laws of nature govern physical systems, the same principles guide the neural, genetic, and environmental factors that create your experience of agency.

To argue that freedom exists outside of determinism is to assert that actions can happen independently of the causes that give rise to them. If that were true, we would have to abandon the very framework that allows us to understand and predict reality—including the framework that gives us science, technology, and reason itself. That’s a high price to pay for preserving an unprovable notion of freedom.

The real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

In the "Can the Secularists be Trusted?" thread, BigMike made the following claim/conclusion upon debating Determinism vs. Free-Will:

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pmThe real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

To Mike and PN Forum Users:

Do you agree with these claims/conclusions?

Is Freedom (aka. "Free-Will) the 'inevitable' result of "More Determinism"? And if so, how? How does "more determinism" = "more freedom"?

Wizard22, let’s cut through the fog here. You’re throwing terms like “freedom” and “un-determined” around as if they’re self-evident truths, but what you’re really doing is trying to defend a belief system that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. The concept of "freedom in spite of determinism" is, frankly, a contradiction in terms. To assert that freedom arises outside of causation is not an argument—it’s a dodge, a retreat into mysticism when confronted with the reality of how the universe operates.

Determinism isn’t a choice, and it’s not something you can wish away because it doesn’t suit your philosophical preferences. It’s the bedrock of reality. Every action, every decision, every so-called "choice" you make is the result of countless interacting causes—your genetics, your environment, your brain chemistry, your experiences. To say otherwise is to deny the very principles that allow us to understand anything at all.

You ask how “more determinism” could mean “more freedom,” but that’s not what I claimed. The freedom you experience—the rich complexity of human thought and creativity—is not something separate from determinism. It’s the emergent result of deterministic processes. The notion that true freedom could exist outside of causation would render it meaningless. A truly uncaused action would be no more intentional or free than a coin flip. Is that the kind of freedom you’re championing? Randomness? Chaos? That’s not freedom; that’s incoherence.

If you’re committed to this idea of “freedom” as being “un-determined,” then prove it. Show me one action, one phenomenon in the entire universe, that arises without cause. If you can’t, then we’re done here. Because determinism isn’t just an idea—it’s reality, and you don’t get to rewrite reality just to feel more comfortable in your worldview.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:01 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 12:29 pm
You don't know that--and you can't prove it if you did know it. Freedom is in spite of determinism, not because of it.

To be Free, is to be Un-determined.

Wizard22, the claim that "to be free is to be un-determined" raises an important question: what does it actually mean for something to be "un-determined"? If by "un-determined," you mean actions that arise without cause, you’re proposing something that contradicts not only physics but also basic logic. An uncaused action would be completely random—something arising from nowhere, influenced by nothing. How could such randomness ever resemble freedom or intentionality?

What you describe as "freedom in spite of determinism" is more likely a subjective experience—our sense of making choices or taking control. But that feeling doesn’t mean the underlying process is free from causation. Just as the laws of nature govern physical systems, the same principles guide the neural, genetic, and environmental factors that create your experience of agency.

To argue that freedom exists outside of determinism is to assert that actions can happen independently of the causes that give rise to them. If that were true, we would have to abandon the very framework that allows us to understand and predict reality—including the framework that gives us science, technology, and reason itself. That’s a high price to pay for preserving an unprovable notion of freedom.

The real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

In the "Can the Secularists be Trusted?" thread, BigMike made the following claim/conclusion upon debating Determinism vs. Free-Will:

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pmThe real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

To Mike and PN Forum Users:

Do you agree with these claims/conclusions?

Is Freedom (aka. "Free-Will) the 'inevitable' result of "More Determinism"? And if so, how? How does "more determinism" = "more freedom"?

Freedom is beautiful . However there is no such thing as absolute freedom unless you are God. Human freedom relates always to what you are free of. God and God alone has Free Will.

Wizard, I do not know whether or not you believe there be God. If you do not believe in God who has sole claim to Free will, then your belief in absolutely free Will is caused by lack of comprehension and attachment to a superstition.

There are people who will try to persuade that God conferred absolute free will on mankind. I hope you can see that this is an effort to establish a false and punitive Creator for political purposes.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmWizard22, let’s cut through the fog here. You’re throwing terms like “freedom” and “un-determined” around as if they’re self-evident truths, but what you’re really doing is trying to defend a belief system that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. The concept of "freedom in spite of determinism" is, frankly, a contradiction in terms. To assert that freedom arises outside of causation is not an argument—it’s a dodge, a retreat into mysticism when confronted with the reality of how the universe operates.

Determinism isn’t a choice,

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice,"

Determinism leads to Choice, in your own words.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmand it’s not something you can wish away because it doesn’t suit your philosophical preferences. It’s the bedrock of reality. Every action, every decision, every so-called "choice" you make is the result of countless interacting causes—your genetics, your environment, your brain chemistry, your experiences. To say otherwise is to deny the very principles that allow us to understand anything at all.

You ask how “more determinism” could mean “more freedom,” but that’s not what I claimed.

You claimed this:

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result."

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmThe freedom you experience—the rich complexity of human thought and creativity—is not something separate from determinism. It’s the emergent result of deterministic processes. The notion that true freedom could exist outside of causation would render it meaningless. A truly uncaused action would be no more intentional or free than a coin flip. Is that the kind of freedom you’re championing? Randomness? Chaos? That’s not freedom; that’s incoherence.

If you’re committed to this idea of “freedom” as being “un-determined,” then prove it. Show me one action, one phenomenon in the entire universe, that arises without cause. If you can’t, then we’re done here. Because determinism isn’t just an idea—it’s reality, and you don’t get to rewrite reality just to feel more comfortable in your worldview.

First, I want to know how and why you believe that (more?) Determinism leads to (more) Freedom.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:20 pmFreedom is beautiful . However there is no such thing as absolute freedom unless you are God. Human freedom relates always to what you are free of. God and God alone has Free Will.

"Freedom from" (Freedom of) is only 1/2 of the Equation.
Freedom To is the other 1/2.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:20 pmWizard, I do not know whether or not you believe there be God. If you do not believe in God who has sole claim to Free will, then your belief in absolutely free Will is caused by lack of comprehension and attachment to a superstition.

Do you mean the Jesus Christ (Living God) or His Father (Old Testament God)? Or perhaps another (Pagan) God?

I do believe that Jesus Christ existed, was real, but I don't necessarily believe in any paranormal or supernatural phenomenon. I do consider that Jesus Christ may have been 'God' in the flesh though, God made Real and True, Human.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:32 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:20 pmFreedom is beautiful . However there is no such thing as absolute freedom unless you are God. Human freedom relates always to what you are free of. God and God alone has Free Will.

"Freedom from" (Freedom of) is only 1/2 of the Equation.
Freedom To is the other 1/2.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:20 pmWizard, I do not know whether or not you believe there be God. If you do not believe in God who has sole claim to Free will, then your belief in absolutely free Will is caused by lack of comprehension and attachment to a superstition.

Do you mean the Jesus Christ (Living God) or His Father (Old Testament God)? Or perhaps another (Pagan) God?

I do believe that Jesus Christ existed, was real, but I don't necessarily believe in any paranormal or supernatural phenomenon. I do consider that Jesus Christ may have been 'God' in the flesh though, God made Real and True, Human.

When God gets a capital letter that is not the name of one of the many pagan gods.

Neither do I believe in any supernatural way of being.

I too respect and revere the historical Jesus as he who explains to us the nature of his spiritual Father. Jesus never once said his spiritual Father in Heaven is punitive, and Jesus always supported forgiveness and love. "Go and sin no more."

To find causes that the woman adulteress sinned is to understand and forgive.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:29 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmWizard22, let’s cut through the fog here. You’re throwing terms like “freedom” and “un-determined” around as if they’re self-evident truths, but what you’re really doing is trying to defend a belief system that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. The concept of "freedom in spite of determinism" is, frankly, a contradiction in terms. To assert that freedom arises outside of causation is not an argument—it’s a dodge, a retreat into mysticism when confronted with the reality of how the universe operates.

Determinism isn’t a choice,

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice,"

Determinism leads to Choice, in your own words.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmand it’s not something you can wish away because it doesn’t suit your philosophical preferences. It’s the bedrock of reality. Every action, every decision, every so-called "choice" you make is the result of countless interacting causes—your genetics, your environment, your brain chemistry, your experiences. To say otherwise is to deny the very principles that allow us to understand anything at all.

You ask how “more determinism” could mean “more freedom,” but that’s not what I claimed.

You claimed this:

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result."

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmThe freedom you experience—the rich complexity of human thought and creativity—is not something separate from determinism. It’s the emergent result of deterministic processes. The notion that true freedom could exist outside of causation would render it meaningless. A truly uncaused action would be no more intentional or free than a coin flip. Is that the kind of freedom you’re championing? Randomness? Chaos? That’s not freedom; that’s incoherence.

If you’re committed to this idea of “freedom” as being “un-determined,” then prove it. Show me one action, one phenomenon in the entire universe, that arises without cause. If you can’t, then we’re done here. Because determinism isn’t just an idea—it’s reality, and you don’t get to rewrite reality just to feel more comfortable in your worldview.

First, I want to know how and why you believe that (more?) Determinism leads to (more) Freedom.

Wizard22, let’s address this directly because it seems you’re conflating the subjective experience of choice with the objective mechanics of determinism. Determinism doesn’t “lead to” freedom, as if it’s building a path toward some utopian ideal of uncaused, unfettered agency. What it does is create the conditions for the complexity we call "choice." Those choices are not free in the sense you seem to want them to be. They are the product of cause and effect—a deterministic web, as I’ve said—where every decision is an outcome of preceding factors.

When I say the "deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice," I mean exactly that: what you perceive as freedom is the output of deterministic processes. Your brain processes inputs—environmental stimuli, memories, emotions, biases—and produces outputs we interpret as decisions. But none of it is independent of causation. Every thought you have is rooted in something: a prior thought, a sensory input, a genetic predisposition.

So, why do I reject the notion that determinism "leads to" freedom? Because freedom, in the sense you seem to be defending—uncaused, unconstrained, "un-determined"—does not and cannot exist. What exists is the illusion of freedom: the subjective experience of weighing options and making choices. That experience is real, but it is entirely determined by the physical and causal conditions of your existence.

You’re asking how determinism produces freedom as though you’re expecting me to square the circle, but it’s not about reconciling opposites. It’s about recognizing that your idea of freedom as being "un-determined" is fundamentally flawed. Determinism doesn’t "lead to" freedom—it is the framework within which all human behavior, thought, and creativity occur. Without causation, there would be no choices, no agency, no structure at all.

You want a world where freedom is unchained from cause and effect? That’s not a world of reason or intentionality; it’s a world of randomness. And randomness is no more free than a rock rolling down a hill. Determinism gives us the scaffolding for everything we are and everything we do. You don’t need "more determinism" to have agency—you need to understand that agency is a product of determinism, not its contradiction.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:29 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmWizard22, let’s cut through the fog here. You’re throwing terms like “freedom” and “un-determined” around as if they’re self-evident truths, but what you’re really doing is trying to defend a belief system that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. The concept of "freedom in spite of determinism" is, frankly, a contradiction in terms. To assert that freedom arises outside of causation is not an argument—it’s a dodge, a retreat into mysticism when confronted with the reality of how the universe operates.

Determinism isn’t a choice,

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice,"

Determinism leads to Choice, in your own words.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmand it’s not something you can wish away because it doesn’t suit your philosophical preferences. It’s the bedrock of reality. Every action, every decision, every so-called "choice" you make is the result of countless interacting causes—your genetics, your environment, your brain chemistry, your experiences. To say otherwise is to deny the very principles that allow us to understand anything at all.

You ask how “more determinism” could mean “more freedom,” but that’s not what I claimed.

You claimed this:

"the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result."

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:13 pmThe freedom you experience—the rich complexity of human thought and creativity—is not something separate from determinism. It’s the emergent result of deterministic processes. The notion that true freedom could exist outside of causation would render it meaningless. A truly uncaused action would be no more intentional or free than a coin flip. Is that the kind of freedom you’re championing? Randomness? Chaos? That’s not freedom; that’s incoherence.

If you’re committed to this idea of “freedom” as being “un-determined,” then prove it. Show me one action, one phenomenon in the entire universe, that arises without cause. If you can’t, then we’re done here. Because determinism isn’t just an idea—it’s reality, and you don’t get to rewrite reality just to feel more comfortable in your worldview.

First, I want to know how and why you believe that (more?) Determinism leads to (more) Freedom.

Wizard22, let’s address this directly because it seems you’re conflating the subjective experience of choice with the objective mechanics of determinism. Determinism doesn’t “lead to” freedom, as if it’s building a path toward some utopian ideal of uncaused, unfettered agency.

HOW would 'this one' KNOW, FOR SURE, and ABSOLUTELY?

Obviously BECAUSE of 'this one's past experiences' it is has be LED to SAY and BELIEVE that 'determinism' does NOT LEAD to 'freedom'.

But, OBVIOUSLY, these people, back then, did NOT YET KNOW what 'the other' ACTUALLY MEANT when 'they' USED the 'freedom' word.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm What it does is create the conditions for the complexity we call "choice."

But there is NO 'complexity' AT ALL for what 'we' call 'choice'?

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm Those choices are not free in the sense you seem to want them to be.

LOL "bigmike" AGAIN, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you human beings DO is 'free' in the sense that you want others to want them to be. But, like I KEEP TELLING you "bigmike", ABSOLUTELY NO wants them to be, like you WANT others to want them to be.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm They are the product of cause and effect—a deterministic web, as I’ve said—where every decision is an outcome of preceding factors.

EXCEPT you KEEP STUPIDLY CLAIMING that the 'deterministic web' STOPS, and STARTED.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm When I say the "deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice," I mean exactly that: what you perceive as freedom is the output of deterministic processes.

AND, what you PERCEIVE as 'the sense' of 'free' that you WANT and WISH others had, is the 'output' of the One and ONLY 'deterministic processes'.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm Your brain

CONTRARY to your BELIEF, here, there is NO 'you', with 'your brain'.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm processes inputs—environmental stimuli, memories, emotions, biases—and produces outputs we interpret as decisions.

you KEEP RE-REPEATING the EXACT SAME Truly STUPID things, here.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE that there are NO 'decisions', in Life?

The 'outputs' that you human beings INTERPRET as 'decisions' USUALLY ARE 'decisions'. And, the VERY REASON you human beings make THIS INTERPRETATION is BECAUSE of 'determinism', itself. Now, IF and WHEN you human beings MAKE False or Wrong INTERPRETATIONS, like you are DOING, here, "bigmike", then, AGAIN, this is BECAUSE of 'determinism', itself, and MORE PRECISELY BECAUSE of what 'that body' has 'previously experienced'.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm But none of it is independent of causation.

YES ABSOLUTELY NONE OF what is thought and/or BELIEVED in 'that body', including ALL of those False, AND True, INTERPRETATIONS, is BE-CAUSE OF 'causation'.

AGAIN, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thought, view, belief, value, interpretation Right, AND Wrong, within 'that head' is DEPENDENT UPON 'that bodies' 'past experiences'. END OF STORY.

ABSOLUTE NO one can REFUTE 'this'.

OH, and by the way, WITHIN EVERY body, there is 'one' WITH 'free will', or 'the ABILITY TO CHOOSE. Which IS, AGAIN, BECAUSE OF, and DEPENDENT UPON, 'that bodies' 'past experiences'. END OF STORY, AGAIN.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm Every thought you have is rooted in something: a prior thought, a sensory input, a genetic predisposition.

AND, EVERY CHOICE, is ROOTED, or BECAUSE OF, the 'past experiences' of 'that body'. But, and OBVIOUSLY, absolutely EVERY 'one' is FREE, TO MAKE CHOICES.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm So, why do I reject the notion that determinism "leads to" freedom? Because freedom, in the sense you seem to be defending—uncaused, unconstrained, "un-determined"—does not and cannot exist.

WHY do you KEEP PRE/ASSUMING that 'the other' has and is using the word 'freedom' in the sense of BEING UNCAUSED?

How about INSTEAD OF just PRESUMING some thing, which may be ABSOLUTELY False, you JUST SEEK OUT and OBTAIN ACTUAL CLARITY, FIRST?

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm What exists is the illusion of freedom

LOL So, the freedom', to 'cross the street', for example, IS an ILLUSION, well to "bigmike".

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm : the subjective experience of weighing options and making choices. That experience is real, but it is entirely determined by the physical and causal conditions of your existence.

AND, your PERSISTENT BELIEF to KEEP PRESUMING and INTERPRETING False AND Wrong things, here, is ENTIRELY DETERMINED by the physical and causal conditions of your 'past experiences', hitherto this VERY MOMENT.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm You’re asking how determinism produces freedom as though you’re expecting me to square the circle, but it’s not about reconciling opposites.

ONCE AGAIN, the REASON WHY you are MAKING this False PRESUMPTION and Wrong INTERPRETATION is BECAUSE 'they' were ENTIRELY DETERMINED by the physical and causal conditions of your 'past experiences', hitherto this VERY MOMENT.

ALL of your INTERPRETATIONS, True AND False, Right AND Wrong, are just the SUM OF ALL of your 'past experiences', up to this VERY MOMENT.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm It’s about recognizing that your idea of freedom as being "un-determined" is fundamentally flawed.

And, it is ABOUT TIME you START recognizing your OWN False AND Wrong INTERPRETATIONS and VIEWS, here, AND that 'they' were ALSO CAUSED BY your OWN INDIVIDUAL 'past experiences', ALONE, and ONLY.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm Determinism doesn’t "lead to" freedom

So, 'now', to "bigmike" anyway, 'determinism' did NOT 'lead to' "bigmike" gaining THE FREEDOM TO 'cross the road', for example.

And, this is BECAUSE "bigmikes" BELIEF/S, here, which were SOLELY DEPENDENT UPON, and BECAUSE OF, "bigmike's" 'past experiences', ONLY, WILL NOT ALLOW "bigmike" to SEE what is the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth, here.

In fact, as "bigmike" KEEPS PROVING, SOLELY BECAUSE OF its 'past experiences', it can NOT even CHOOSE whether it HAS 'freedom', itself, or not.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm —it is the framework within which all human behavior, thought, and creativity occur. Without causation, there would be no choices, no agency, no structure at all.

You want a world where freedom is unchained from cause and effect?

ONCE AGAIN, what 'we' have, here, is ANOTHER poster who makes A CLAIM, but puts a QUESTION MARK at the end.

THE CLAIM that 'they' MAKE, by the way, like in this example, is USUALLY JUST A BELIEF one HAS and IS HOLDING ONTO, but which is just POSED as A QUESTION, to DECEIVE the readers, in the SAME WAY that they, "themselves", have BEEN DECEIVED, TRICKED, and FOOLED BY and FROM their own 'past experiences'.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm That’s not a world of reason or intentionality; it’s a world of randomness. And randomness is no more free than a rock rolling down a hill.

'your world', here, ALSO, is NOT 'a world' of REASON.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm Determinism gives us the scaffolding for everything we are and everything we do.

It IS 'determinism', which HAS ALLOWED and LED you people, here, to HAVE the ABILITY TO CHOOSE, which is ALSO KNOWN AS 'free will'.

And, the REASON WHY you, STILL, can NOT YET COMPREHEND, and UNDERSTAND, this Fact is BECAUSE 'your BELIEFS', here, WILL NOT ALLOW you TO SEE 'this Fact'. And, ABSOLUTELY ALL of your BELIEFS were CAUSED by 'your upbringing', hitherto.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm You don’t need "more determinism" to have agency—you need to understand that agency is a product of determinism, not its contradiction.

AGAIN, you KEEP BELIEVING ARE SEEING things, here, which they are NOT.

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pmWhat exists is the illusion of freedom: the subjective experience of weighing options and making choices. That experience is real, but it is entirely determined by the physical and causal conditions of your existence.

How is freedom both an "illusion", and the experience (of freedom) is "real", at the same time??

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:43 pmTo find causes that the woman adulteress sinned is to understand and forgive.

Is that what you women obsess about...that if granted absolute freedom, it's about freedom to have sex with whomever you want, and freedom from any unintended and negative consequences, B?

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:16 pmThe real marvel is not that freedom exists independently of determinism, but that the deterministic web of causes produces the rich complexity we experience as choice, creativity, and agency. That’s where human excellence truly shines—not in defiance of causation, but as its extraordinary result.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:01 pm
To Mike and PN Forum Users:

Do you agree with these claims/conclusions?

Absolutely. Well worded big Mike.

I believe BigMike is narrowing down the 'inevitable' (?) conclusion that freedom can only ever be an illusion, a self-imposed delusion, in any and every "Deterministic" system.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:39 am I believe BigMike is narrowing down the 'inevitable' (?) conclusion that freedom can only ever be an illusion

In the quotes in the op, it doesn't look like that to me. It looks too me like he's talking positively about freedom, not at if its this fake thing, an illusion or delusion.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:48 amIn the quotes in the op, it doesn't look like that to me. It looks too me like he's talking positively about freedom, not at if its this fake thing, an illusion or delusion.

Then how do you explain this:

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pmWhat exists is the illusion of freedom: the subjective experience of weighing options and making choices. That experience is real, but it is entirely determined by the physical and causal conditions of your existence.

How is it not a contradiction?

He quite clearly states "illusion of freedom".

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:36 am

BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pmWhat exists is the illusion of freedom: the subjective experience of weighing options and making choices. That experience is real, but it is entirely determined by the physical and causal conditions of your existence.

How is freedom both an "illusion", and the experience (of freedom) is "real", at the same time??

Wizard22, you’re twisting the concept into knots that don’t exist. Let’s untangle it. When I say freedom is an illusion, I’m not saying the experience of freedom doesn’t happen—of course it happens. You feel it. I feel it. We all feel it. But feeling something doesn’t make it objectively true. That’s the key distinction.

Think about a mirage in the desert. You see water shimmering on the horizon. The experience of seeing the mirage is real—you’re perceiving something—but there’s no actual water there. Similarly, the experience of freedom feels real because our brains are wired to process decisions in a way that creates this sense of agency. However, what’s behind that feeling is not some magical, uncaused force of "free will" but rather a complex chain of causes that led you to make that decision.

This is how freedom can be both an illusion and a real experience. The experience of choice—the deliberation, the weighing of options, the sense of control—is genuinely happening in your mind. But the causes behind it? Those are entirely deterministic: your genetics, your upbringing, your environment, the current state of your neurons. You feel free because your brain doesn’t consciously register all those causes in real-time—it just delivers the final product: a decision.

So no, it’s not contradictory to say that the experience of freedom is real while the idea of freedom as some uncaused, independent force is illusory. Your brain is an incredibly complex system, capable of simulating what feels like autonomy. But peel back the layers, and you’ll find nothing but a deterministic process chugging along, as it always has. That’s the reality we’re working with.