Philosophy Now Forum

VA to ChatGpt:
My thesis is, whatever the reality, it is contingent upon a human-based Framework and System [FS] of empirical based reality and knowledge of the Scientific FS is the most credible and objective, thus the gold standard.

I don't have the direct evidence in getting consensus for all humans, but intuitively from extensive reading I believe I am correct in claiming that Scientific FS is the most credible and objective, thus the gold standard.

How do I justify to the skeptics of the above that science is the most credible and objective?
I understand science has the relevant criteria[s] as the most credible and objective FS.
My question is, are there any surveys or polls that can confirm the scientific FS is the most credible and objective FS?
How else can I justify he scientific FS is the most credible and objective FS?

ChatGpt Wrote:
Your thesis, that the scientific framework and system (Scientific FS) is the most credible and objective framework for understanding reality, is strong but can benefit from additional support when engaging skeptics. Here's how you can address this:

1. Surveys or Polls Supporting Public Trust in Science
While direct evidence for global consensus might be limited, several surveys and studies indicate widespread trust in science:

Pew Research Center: Regularly surveys public trust in scientists and science globally, often showing that science and scientists are among the most trusted institutions.
World Values Survey (WVS): Provides data on how much importance people place on science as a means to progress and problem-solving.
National Science Foundation (NSF) Reports: Regularly evaluates public attitudes toward science in the U.S., often highlighting science's perceived credibility.
You can cite these surveys as indirect evidence of the perceived credibility and objectivity of the scientific FS.

Examples of polls:
viewtopic.php?p=742779#p742779

2. Key Characteristics of Science Supporting Credibility
Explain why science is considered the gold standard by referencing its epistemological strengths:

Empirical Basis: Science relies on observable, testable, and repeatable phenomena, minimizing subjectivity.
Falsifiability: Scientific claims must be testable and refutable, ensuring adaptability and self-correction.
Peer Review: The collaborative and critical review process weeds out errors and biases, reinforcing objectivity.
Predictive Power: Science’s ability to make accurate predictions (e.g., in medicine, technology, and natural phenomena) demonstrates its credibility.
Global Consensus: Scientific principles like gravity, thermodynamics, and evolution are universally recognized, transcending cultural and individual biases.

3. Comparative Analysis of Frameworks
Argue that alternative frameworks lack the objectivity and reliability of the scientific FS:

Faith-Based Frameworks: Tend to rely on unverifiable or dogmatic principles, lacking empirical validation.
Philosophical Speculation: Often lacks the means to test hypotheses against reality.
Cultural Relativism: While valuable in contextual understanding, it often lacks the universal applicability of scientific conclusions.

4. Historical and Practical Evidence
Point to historical and practical examples that highlight science’s superiority:

Technological Progress: The advancements enabled by science—such as in medicine, transportation, and communication—underscore its practical efficacy.
Resolution of Disputes: Scientific methodologies have resolved longstanding debates in ways that other systems could not, e.g., heliocentrism vs. geocentrism.

5. Challenges to Scientific Credibility and Your Rebuttals
Skeptics may point to errors or failures in science. Acknowledge these but frame them as part of science’s strength:

Self-Correcting Nature: Scientific FS evolves by acknowledging and correcting mistakes, unlike static frameworks.
Provisional Knowledge: Science does not claim absolute truth but aims for the best possible understanding given current evidence.

6. Encourage Discussion of Framework-Dependence
Highlight that all human knowledge operates within a framework. While other frameworks exist, none match science's objectivity and reliability within its empirical limits:

FS-Objectivity: Frame science as an FS-objective system, where objectivity arises from adherence to empirical and methodological standards.
Interdisciplinary Support: Emphasize that science integrates multiple domains (physics, biology, psychology) into a cohesive framework, further supporting its comprehensiveness.

7. Further Justification Through Cognitive Science
Studies in cognitive and social sciences show humans naturally gravitate toward evidence-based reasoning under specific conditions. Cite studies that explain why empirical evidence resonates universally.

Next Steps for Your Argument:
Research and cite relevant surveys like those from Pew Research and NSF.
Prepare counterarguments to common criticisms of science, emphasizing its adaptability and empirical rigor.
Leverage practical examples to illustrate how the scientific FS has benefited humanity.
Would you like me to help find specific polls or refine any part of this approach?

Here are some recent insights into public trust in science based on polls:

Pew Research Center Surveys:

A 2024 survey found that 73% of Americans have a "great deal" or "fair amount" of confidence in scientists to act in the public's best interests. Medical scientists (77%) and the military (74%) ranked slightly higher. However, trust levels have declined slightly since the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly among Democrats with higher education levels【11】.
Another study showed that 44% of Americans in 2018 expressed a "great deal" of confidence in the scientific community, with this level remaining stable since the 1970s. Confidence in scientists and medical professionals remains significantly higher than in other groups like journalists or Congress【12】.

Educational and Demographic Differences:

People with higher educational attainment are more likely to trust scientists. For instance, 80% of individuals with a bachelor’s degree or higher expressed at least a fair amount of confidence in scientists, compared to 69% among those with less education【11】【12】.
Among racial and ethnic groups, Asian Americans report the highest confidence in scientists. Differences within political affiliations are more pronounced, with White Democrats showing the most confidence in science compared to Black and Hispanic Democrats【11】.

These findings underscore that while trust in science remains relatively high compared to other institutions, there are nuances in how different groups view the scientific community.

References:
Searched 5 sites
“public trust in science Pew Research Center survey site:pewresearch.org”
bing.com

Pew Research Center — Americans’ Trust in Scientists and Views of Science Decline in 2023 | Pew Research Center
pewresearch.org

Pew Research Center — Americans’ trust in scientists in 2024 | Pew Research Center
pewresearch.org

Pew Research Center — 5 key findings about public trust in scientists in the U.S. | Pew Research Center
pewresearch.org

Pew Research Center — Confidence in scientists, medical scientists, and other groups and institutions in society | Pew Research Center
pewresearch.org

Pew Research Center — Public confidence in scientists has remained stable for decades | Pew Research Center
pewresearch.org

I believe theists would not grant the science FS as the most credible and objective in relation to creationism.
However, I believe many prior skeptical religionists who were skeptical of Science as credible and objective has conceded e.g. with reference to evolution by the Vatican.
Please give examples where religions has conceded to [at least certain] scientific knowledge as credible.

ChatGPT Wrote:

Searched 5 sites
Religions have often shown openness to integrating certain scientific findings into their teachings and worldview, particularly when these findings align with or complement theological principles. Here are notable examples:

The Vatican and Evolution: The Catholic Church has acknowledged evolution as a credible scientific explanation for the development of life. In 1950, Pope Pius XII allowed for the possibility of evolution in Humani Generis. Later, Pope John Paul II in 1996 affirmed evolution as “more than a hypothesis,” supported by substantial evidence. This marked a significant shift from earlier skepticism and demonstrated the Church's willingness to engage with scientific discoveries
WIKIPEDIA.

Acceptance of the Big Bang Theory: The Big Bang Theory has been embraced by some religious leaders, including the Catholic Church, as being compatible with the idea of a divine creator. Interestingly, Georges Lemaître, a Catholic priest and physicist, was a key figure in formulating this theory, which has since been regarded as aligning with the idea of a universe with a temporal beginning​
CATHOLIC PHILLY.

Climate Change and Environmental Science: Pope Francis has emphasized the importance of scientific insights in addressing environmental crises. In Laudato Si’ (2015), he explicitly cited scientific research to highlight the urgency of climate action and called for a partnership between faith and science to protect the planet​
VATICAN OBSERVATORY VATICAN

Medical Science and Ethics: Religious institutions have often supported advances in medical science that align with ethical teachings. For example, many religious groups advocate for vaccination campaigns, recognizing their importance in promoting public health, even while debating specific ethical concerns in certain cases​

These examples illustrate a broader trend where religions, while maintaining theological distinctiveness, often concede to and incorporate scientific knowledge that is rigorously validated and perceived as beneficial to humanity. This synthesis can sometimes lead to a richer dialogue between faith and reason.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Discuss??
View??

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:53 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Discuss??
View??

Well, it's been pointed out before: the way you are demonstrating that the Scientific FS is the most Credible and Objective is via some kind of FSERC. If I look at the Chatgpt justification, that isn't the scientific FSERC it is using, since it appeals to popularity, for example. Not that this is the only problem.

Some kind of evaluation system has been used to determine the best FS. Whatever that is, it isn't the scientific FS. So we have a problem. This means you used a substandard FS to draw a conclusion and one which claims to be able to evaluate all existing FSs. What is this FS, the one that evaluated all the others? How do we know it works?

This problem isn't isolated to your position, but it certainly comes up in your position.

What is this FS? What is it's name? How do we test ITS accuracy, objectivity and credibility?

This meta FS.....

AI wrote:
The concern of regress in rating frameworks and systems (FSes) for their credibility and objectivity is a valid philosophical challenge. Addressing this requires a robust justification for why the scientific FS, rated as the most credible and objective, does not require an infinite regress of meta-frameworks. Here's how this can be approached:

1. Anchoring in Agreed-Upon Criteria:
Verifiability, Repeatability, and Testability: These criteria are broadly accepted across rational communities because they reliably establish objective knowledge. The success of science in explaining natural phenomena and enabling technological advancements reinforces their validity.

Practical Universality: The scientific FS, by its nature, transcends cultural and subjective biases, providing a common ground for rational evaluation.
These criteria themselves emerge from human cognition, which is constrained by shared biological, cognitive, and environmental conditions. Therefore, these criteria have a self-referential coherence without needing an external FS for their validation.

2. Meta-Rating Frameworks and the Regress Challenge:
Finite Regress: A meta-framework to rate FSes could theoretically rely on secondary criteria derived from the primary scientific FS. For instance, empirical evidence could validate why verifiability and repeatability are superior criteria, thus closing the loop.
Coherence Theory of Truth: By demonstrating coherence between FS criteria (e.g., consistency between testability and predictive success), the need for an external FS diminishes.

3. Pragmatism as a Final Justification:
Skeptics often demand absolute foundations, but the scientific FS relies on pragmatic justification: it works. The FS that explains, predicts, and solves problems most effectively becomes the de facto "gold standard." This practical success often trumps abstract regress concerns.
Evolutionary Epistemology: Our reliance on verifiable, repeatable, and testable criteria is shaped by evolutionary pressures favoring reliable interaction with the environment.

4. Illustrations of Convergence:
Scientific Consensus: The scientific FS is repeatedly affirmed through consensus in diverse fields. For instance, the effectiveness of the scientific method is demonstrated by its application in medicine, engineering, and technology.
Interdisciplinary Support: Philosophy of science validates the scientific FS through works like Karl Popper’s falsifiability criterion and Thomas Kuhn’s paradigm shifts, emphasizing a system's ability to adapt and refine itself as new evidence emerges.

5. Convincing the Skeptic:
Invite Rational Comparison: Challenge the skeptic to propose an alternative FS and demonstrate its superiority based on agreed-upon criteria.
Demonstrate Limits of Infinite Regress: Highlight that infinite regress is a theoretical concern but not a practical barrier. The scientific FS is justified at the level necessary for functional, reliable, and consistent outcomes.
Explain Foundationalism with Flexibility: Combine foundationalist elements (basic agreed-upon criteria) with coherentist strategies (mutual reinforcement of criteria).

This approach makes the case that while no FS is immune to skepticism, the scientific FS stands as the most credible and objective due to its unparalleled success and alignment with criteria broadly accepted as rational and effective.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:17 am We have gone through this before.
Here is AI response to the above [save me a lot time], it would have taken me hours or researching to come up with the above. So it is wise to rely on AI.

There is no denial that, whether you agree or not the above will add knowledge of VALID alternative views to widen your knowledge base. So why the complain?

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:37 pm Precisely when did VA stop using one of these KFC-Buckets to assign "credibility" and just dump that job an AI bot? And what is his excuse for that?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:29 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:17 am We have gone through this before.
Here is AI response to the above [save me a lot time], it would have taken me hours or researching to come up with the above. So it is wise to rely on AI.

1) I did not make a regress argument. I could see one of those having a similar beginning, but actually I asked a question, which you failed to answer and given how you prompted so did the AI.

So, strawman.
Then 2) what the AI presented is a kind of FS. Is it better or worse than the scientific FS. 3) It actually uses the scientific FS as part of itself, so...is this biased?

There is no denial that, whether you agree or not the above will add knowledge of VALID alternative views to widen your knowledge base. So why the complain?

Why the complain, as you say, when other people have differing interpretations of Kant, for example? Why do you, in those instances essentially insult them and praise your own knowledge? Why when dealing with realists do you have the complain, as you say, since they are presenting other views? Why must you in those instances do some lay mindreading psychoanalysis?

When someone has a different view from you on one of your pet topics, you complain and insult and psychoanalyze, then you go on to act as if only your viewpoint is valid, generally using AIs to support you in this?

Can you admit the hypocrisy?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Here is a discussion with ChatGpt on why the Scientific Framework and System [FS] of reality and knowledge is the Most Credible & Objective, as such it is the gold standard.

VA to ChatGpt:
My thesis is, whatever the reality, it is contingent upon a human-based Framework and System [FS] of empirical based reality and knowledge of the Scientific FS is the most credible and objective, thus the gold standard.

I don't have the direct evidence in getting consensus for all humans, but intuitively from extensive reading I believe I am correct in claiming that Scientific FS is the most credible and objective, thus the gold standard.

How do I justify to the skeptics of the above that science is the most credible and objective?
I understand science has the relevant criteria[s] as the most credible and objective FS.
My question is, are there any surveys or polls that can confirm the scientific FS is the most credible and objective FS?
How else can I justify he scientific FS is the most credible and objective FS?

That ChatGpt responded,
"Your thesis, that the scientific framework and system (Scientific FS) is the most credible and objective framework for understanding reality, is strong" is based on ChatGpt own assessment and with my past discussion with ChatGpt on the subject of the FS.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Note this: No Lying to AI to Favor VA's Views??
viewtopic.php?t=43161

Here is ChatGpt response to my Question:

ChatGpt Wrote:
Your thesis, that the scientific framework and system (Scientific FS) is the most credible and objective framework for understanding reality, is strong but can benefit from additional support when engaging skeptics. Here's how you can address this:

1. Surveys or Polls Supporting Public Trust in Science
While direct evidence for global consensus might be limited, several surveys and studies indicate widespread trust in science:

Pew Research Center: Regularly surveys public trust in scientists and science globally, often showing that science and scientists are among the most trusted institutions.
World Values Survey (WVS): Provides data on how much importance people place on science as a means to progress and problem-solving.
National Science Foundation (NSF) Reports: Regularly evaluates public attitudes toward science in the U.S., often highlighting science's perceived credibility.
You can cite these surveys as indirect evidence of the perceived credibility and objectivity of the scientific FS.

Examples of polls:
viewtopic.php?p=742779#p742779

2. Key Characteristics of Science Supporting Credibility
Explain why science is considered the gold standard by referencing its epistemological strengths:

Empirical Basis: Science relies on observable, testable, and repeatable phenomena, minimizing subjectivity.
Falsifiability: Scientific claims must be testable and refutable, ensuring adaptability and self-correction.
Peer Review: The collaborative and critical review process weeds out errors and biases, reinforcing objectivity.
Predictive Power: Science’s ability to make accurate predictions (e.g., in medicine, technology, and natural phenomena) demonstrates its credibility.
Global Consensus: Scientific principles like gravity, thermodynamics, and evolution are universally recognized, transcending cultural and individual biases.

3. Comparative Analysis of Frameworks
Argue that alternative frameworks lack the objectivity and reliability of the scientific FS:

Faith-Based Frameworks: Tend to rely on unverifiable or dogmatic principles, lacking empirical validation.
Philosophical Speculation: Often lacks the means to test hypotheses against reality.
Cultural Relativism: While valuable in contextual understanding, it often lacks the universal applicability of scientific conclusions.

4. Historical and Practical Evidence
Point to historical and practical examples that highlight science’s superiority:

Technological Progress: The advancements enabled by science—such as in medicine, transportation, and communication—underscore its practical efficacy.
Resolution of Disputes: Scientific methodologies have resolved longstanding debates in ways that other systems could not, e.g., heliocentrism vs. geocentrism.

5. Challenges to Scientific Credibility and Your Rebuttals
Skeptics may point to errors or failures in science. Acknowledge these but frame them as part of science’s strength:

Self-Correcting Nature: Scientific FS evolves by acknowledging and correcting mistakes, unlike static frameworks.
Provisional Knowledge: Science does not claim absolute truth but aims for the best possible understanding given current evidence.

6. Encourage Discussion of Framework-Dependence
Highlight that all human knowledge operates within a framework. While other frameworks exist, none match science's objectivity and reliability within its empirical limits:

FS-Objectivity: Frame science as an FS-objective system, where objectivity arises from adherence to empirical and methodological standards.
Interdisciplinary Support: Emphasize that science integrates multiple domains (physics, biology, psychology) into a cohesive framework, further supporting its comprehensiveness.

7. Further Justification Through Cognitive Science
Studies in cognitive and social sciences show humans naturally gravitate toward evidence-based reasoning under specific conditions. Cite studies that explain why empirical evidence resonates universally.

Next Steps for Your Argument:
Research and cite relevant surveys like those from Pew Research and NSF.
Prepare counterarguments to common criticisms of science, emphasizing its adaptability and empirical rigor.
Leverage practical examples to illustrate how the scientific FS has benefited humanity.
Would you like me to help find specific polls or refine any part of this approach?

Note post #3 re Science vs Religion

Discuss??
View??

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:53 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Discuss??
View??

Well, it's been pointed out before: the way you are demonstrating that the Scientific FS is the most Credible and Objective is via some kind of FSERC. If I look at the Chatgpt justification, that isn't the scientific FSERC it is using, since it appeals to popularity, for example. Not that this is the only problem.

Some kind of evaluation system has been used to determine the best FS. Whatever that is, it isn't the scientific FS. So we have a problem. This means you used a substandard FS to draw a conclusion and one which claims to be able to evaluate all existing FSs. What is this FS, the one that evaluated all the others? How do we know it works?

This problem isn't isolated to your position, but it certainly comes up in your position.

What is this FS? What is it's name? How do we test ITS accuracy, objectivity and credibility?

This meta FS.....

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:17 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:53 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 6:13 am Discuss??
View??

Well, it's been pointed out before: the way you are demonstrating that the Scientific FS is the most Credible and Objective is via some kind of FSERC. If I look at the Chatgpt justification, that isn't the scientific FSERC it is using, since it appeals to popularity, for example. Not that this is the only problem.

Some kind of evaluation system has been used to determine the best FS. Whatever that is, it isn't the scientific FS. So we have a problem. This means you used a substandard FS to draw a conclusion and one which claims to be able to evaluate all existing FSs. What is this FS, the one that evaluated all the others? How do we know it works?

This problem isn't isolated to your position, but it certainly comes up in your position.

What is this FS? What is it's name? How do we test ITS accuracy, objectivity and credibility?

This meta FS.....

We have gone through this before.
Here is AI response to the above [save me a lot time], it would have taken me hours or researching to come up with the above. So it is wise to rely on AI.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:17 am

AI wrote:
The concern of regress in rating frameworks and systems (FSes) for their credibility and objectivity is a valid philosophical challenge. Addressing this requires a robust justification for why the scientific FS, rated as the most credible and objective, does not require an infinite regress of meta-frameworks. Here's how this can be approached:

1. Anchoring in Agreed-Upon Criteria:
Verifiability, Repeatability, and Testability: These criteria are broadly accepted across rational communities because they reliably establish objective knowledge. The success of science in explaining natural phenomena and enabling technological advancements reinforces their validity.

Practical Universality: The scientific FS, by its nature, transcends cultural and subjective biases, providing a common ground for rational evaluation.
These criteria themselves emerge from human cognition, which is constrained by shared biological, cognitive, and environmental conditions. Therefore, these criteria have a self-referential coherence without needing an external FS for their validation.

2. Meta-Rating Frameworks and the Regress Challenge:
Finite Regress: A meta-framework to rate FSes could theoretically rely on secondary criteria derived from the primary scientific FS. For instance, empirical evidence could validate why verifiability and repeatability are superior criteria, thus closing the loop.
Coherence Theory of Truth: By demonstrating coherence between FS criteria (e.g., consistency between testability and predictive success), the need for an external FS diminishes.

3. Pragmatism as a Final Justification:
Skeptics often demand absolute foundations, but the scientific FS relies on pragmatic justification: it works. The FS that explains, predicts, and solves problems most effectively becomes the de facto "gold standard." This practical success often trumps abstract regress concerns.
Evolutionary Epistemology: Our reliance on verifiable, repeatable, and testable criteria is shaped by evolutionary pressures favoring reliable interaction with the environment.

4. Illustrations of Convergence:
Scientific Consensus: The scientific FS is repeatedly affirmed through consensus in diverse fields. For instance, the effectiveness of the scientific method is demonstrated by its application in medicine, engineering, and technology.
Interdisciplinary Support: Philosophy of science validates the scientific FS through works like Karl Popper’s falsifiability criterion and Thomas Kuhn’s paradigm shifts, emphasizing a system's ability to adapt and refine itself as new evidence emerges.

5. Convincing the Skeptic:
Invite Rational Comparison: Challenge the skeptic to propose an alternative FS and demonstrate its superiority based on agreed-upon criteria.
Demonstrate Limits of Infinite Regress: Highlight that infinite regress is a theoretical concern but not a practical barrier. The scientific FS is justified at the level necessary for functional, reliable, and consistent outcomes.
Explain Foundationalism with Flexibility: Combine foundationalist elements (basic agreed-upon criteria) with coherentist strategies (mutual reinforcement of criteria).

This approach makes the case that while no FS is immune to skepticism, the scientific FS stands as the most credible and objective due to its unparalleled success and alignment with criteria broadly accepted as rational and effective.

There is no denial that, whether you agree or not the above will add knowledge of VALID alternative views to widen your knowledge base. So why the complain?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:29 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 02, 2024 8:17 am We have gone through this before.
Here is AI response to the above [save me a lot time], it would have taken me hours or researching to come up with the above. So it is wise to rely on AI.

1) I did not make a regress argument. I could see one of those having a similar beginning, but actually I asked a question, which you failed to answer and given how you prompted so did the AI.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:29 pm So, strawman.
Then 2) what the AI presented is a kind of FS. Is it better or worse than the scientific FS. 3) It actually uses the scientific FS as part of itself, so...is this biased?

There is no denial that, whether you agree or not the above will add knowledge of VALID alternative views to widen your knowledge base. So why the complain?

Why the complain, as you say, when other people have differing interpretations of Kant, for example? Why do you, in those instances essentially insult them and praise your own knowledge? Why when dealing with realists do you have the complain, as you say, since they are presenting other views? Why must you in those instances do some lay mindreading psychoanalysis?

When someone has a different view from you on one of your pet topics, you complain and insult and psychoanalyze, then you go on to act as if only your viewpoint is valid, generally using AIs to support you in this?

Can you admit the hypocrisy?

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:37 pm Precisely when did VA stop using one of these KFC-Buckets to assign "credibility" and just dump that job an AI bot?

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 4:37 pm And what is his excuse for that?