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How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am
by Angelo Cannata
From a critical point of view, both concepts of being and not being objects aren't free at all from uncertainty. Strictly speaking, we don't even know the ultimate meaning of being an object. I am going to deal with my question from an existential point of view. In an existential context it is clear that frequently we feel ourselves as acting just like machines: I eat because the machine of my body needs food, I even think because the neurons of my brain make me think. But I don't like to perceive myself like a machine, even if it can be enjoyable. Philosophers have thought a lot about ways that should help us to better fulfill the best of our being humans. We can think, for example, of Heidegger's concept of authenticity. But thinking that I am a being towards death doesn't make me so interested in not being an object: is it really better than just enjoying life passively? Something that I find more interesting is my self perception of being me. Given the criticism I mentioned before, I am not going to consider this as a truth, a reality, but just as a perception, a feeling, which as such can even be completely illusory. However, there is a reasoning that seems able to make our self perception tenable, although not ultimately completely free from criticism, as I said before. Let's consider this reasoning now.

When we describe things, it is impossible to talk about things or aspects that are absolutely and completely unique. Even the expression "absolutely unique" is made with words, concepts, that aren't at all absolutely unique. This means that, whenever we talk about individual persons or things, we always talk about things that are shared among them. If you want to talk about me, you can only talk about things and concepts that in me are shared with other people or things. As a consequence, it is ultimately impossible to talk specifically about me as the unique and specific person which I am. It is impossible even to myself: I can't talk to myself about specifically myself. However, here is a paradox, a bizarre and puzzling experience: despite this radical inability to talk to myself about the specific myself, I feel like I can feel it. Here is the puzzle: I am used to the idea that I can describe a lot of things that I can feel, and other people are able to give me feedbacks that make me think that we are talking about the same thing. But, if the topic is my feeling myself (not the feeling themselves of everyone, but the feeling specifically me that I only have in this world) then there is no way of talking about it.

After all, this is somehow understandable, with reference to what I said: language is able to talk about shared things and concepts only. There aren't words to describe anything unique in this world, such as that specific flower. Even if I say "That specific flower in that moment and in that space", this is far from making use of any unique concept: it makes use of a combination of shared concepts that try to capture the object into a cage of coordinates, but they are just coordinates, each of them shared with other objects, they are not a unique name for that unique object.
Because of that, this feeling of uniqueness, unexpressible by principle, seems able to escape any risk of objectivation, it seems to me that this could be the root, the reference point to make me a non-object, a pure subject, a pure human.

There are, obviously, infinite degrees and ways of mentally and existentially living this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, this is just the root, but human life cannot be made of roots only: we also need objects, connections, relationships, mixtures, but it seems to me that that feeling could be the root.
In this context I disagree with the buddhist concept that our individuality should be conceived as something whose destiny is to melt with the whole: this seems to me just metaphysics.

If I am right, this could be the root, the reference point for authentic human existence and also for respect, appreciation and interest of humans between each other.

What do you think?

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am
by Skepdick
In our uniqueness we are all the same.

Subjects. Objects - it's all connotation. Metaphysically - you are what you think you are.

Language is the map, not the teritory. Stop mixing them up.

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:16 pm
by Age
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am From a critical point of view, both concepts of being and not being objects aren't free at all from uncertainty. Strictly speaking, we don't even know the ultimate meaning of being an object.
So, fundamentally, you are asking how can you humans avoid being what you do not even know the ultimate meaning of, anyway.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am I am going to deal with my question from an existential point of view. In an existential context it is clear that frequently we feel ourselves as acting just like machines: I eat because the machine of my body needs food, I even think because the neurons of my brain make me think. But I don't like to perceive myself like a machine, even if it can be enjoyable.
Well just do not think of the body, or any of the parts of the body, are 'you'.

'you', the 'person', and, the 'self are very different, from the 'body'.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Philosophers have thought a lot about ways that should help us to better fulfill the best of our being humans. We can think, for example, of Heidegger's concept of authenticity. But thinking that I am a being towards death doesn't make me so interested in not being an object: is it really better than just enjoying life passively?
'you', the human 'person', 'self', or 'soul' does not 'die', but were born. 'I', the 'Spirit', however, always am eternal.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Something that I find more interesting is my self perception of being me.
The term 'my self' is an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms.

The word 'my' implies ownership, and it would be an impossibility for a human being to own 'a' self.

Either one is 'a self', or they are not. No 'one self' could own 'a' self. Although, obviously some like to imagine that 'they' own 'another' or 'others'.

Also, and by the way there are many human being 'selves', while there is only One 'Self'. And, there is absolutely NO 'one self' that is a 'my' having or owning 'a' self.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Given the criticism I mentioned before, I am not going to consider this as a truth, a reality, but just as a perception, a feeling, which as such can even be completely illusory. However, there is a reasoning that seems able to make our self perception tenable, although not ultimately completely free from criticism, as I said before. Let's consider this reasoning now.
But, first, just like there is no 'my' self' there is also no 'our' self. Unless, of course, 'you' can show and prove who this 'our' is that has or owns 'self'.

So, what do the words 'my' and 'our' above here, referring to, exactly?
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am When we describe things, it is impossible to talk about things or aspects that are absolutely and completely unique. Even the expression "absolutely unique" is made with words, concepts, that aren't at all absolutely unique. This means that, whenever we talk about individual persons or things, we always talk about things that are shared among them.
'you' might do this, and 'some others' might do this as well. But, I might not necessarily do this.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am If you want to talk about me, you can only talk about things and concepts that in me are shared with other people or things. As a consequence, it is ultimately impossible to talk specifically about me as the unique and specific person which I am.
Why do 'you' believe, absolutely, that it is impossible to do?
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am It is impossible even to myself: I can't talk to myself about specifically myself.
If, and when, 'you' are able to answer, properly and Correctly who and what 'you', 'a person' is, exactly, and also who and what 'I' am, exactly, then 'you' will learn, and understand, what 'you' are saying and claiming here is impossible, is not really.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am However, here is a paradox,
Which definition of the word 'paradox' are 'you' using here, exactly?

See, the definitions for the word 'paradox' are, literally, 'a paradox' in and of themselves.

So, were you using the 'a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition, which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true', definition, or, the 'a statement or proposition which, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems logically unacceptable or self-contradictory', definition?
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am a bizarre and puzzling experience: despite this radical inability to talk to myself about the specific myself, I feel like I can feel it.
This is because of who and what 'I' am, or the Real and True Self, is, exactly, compared to who and what 'you' the personal human being 'self' is, exactly.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Here is the puzzle: I am used to the idea that I can describe a lot of things that I can feel, and other people are able to give me feedbacks that make me think that we are talking about the same thing. But, if the topic is my feeling myself (not the feeling themselves of everyone, but the feeling specifically me that I only have in this world) then there is no way of talking about it.
Yes there is.

It is said and claimed that there are about 450 or so emotions, or internal feelings. Once you can recognize, and label, which one of those 450 or so emotions, which has 'risen' within 'that body', then when you express and share that word, or words, for that feeling, or feelings, than other human beings can 'know' what 'you' are talking about.

But, first 'you' have to have the ability to recognize, and know, the emotions/feelings, within.

A list of emotion words in front of 'you' makes it far, far easier, and simpler, to align 'the feelings' within. Although, one also has to stop, and 'look at', and 'notice' the emotions, which are 'coming and going', before they could even begin to recognize them.

And, once you have recognized 'the emotion', and aligned 'it' with 'a word', or 'words', then 'you' can 'talk about it'.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am After all, this is somehow understandable, with reference to what I said: language is able to talk about shared things and concepts only. There aren't words to describe anything unique in this world, such as that specific flower.
Every one of 'you' individual and different human beings are special, and unique. AND, absolutely every one can be described uniquely, in this One and only Universe. Which, also and by the way, can also be described uniquely, because there is, literally, only One Universe. Just like there is One only 'I'.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Even if I say "That specific flower in that moment and in that space", this is far from making use of any unique concept: it makes use of a combination of shared concepts that try to capture the object into a cage of coordinates, but they are just coordinates, each of them shared with other objects, they are not a unique name for that unique object.
Is the name 'Universe', or even the word 'matter', unique names for those unique objects?

There are, after all, literally, just One Universe, and, One matter.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am Because of that, this feeling of uniqueness, unexpressible by principle, seems able to escape any risk of objectivation, it seems to me that this could be the root, the reference point to make me a non-object, a pure subject, a pure human.
The human body is an 'object', but 'you', the 'person' is certainly not.

Or, if 'you' want to believe that you are, then 'you' are a completely invisible 'object'.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am There are, obviously, infinite degrees and ways of mentally and existentially living this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, this is just the root, but human life cannot be made of roots only: we also need objects, connections, relationships, mixtures, but it seems to me that that feeling could be the root.
In this context I disagree with the buddhist concept that our individuality should be conceived as something whose destiny is to melt with the whole: this seems to me just metaphysics.
But, there is no 'our' individuality, as the word 'our', here, is referring to 'human beings', individually, correct?

If yes, then 'you' are talking about and referring to things, (with an 's'), as though 'they' are 'the same'.

Also, the concept of human beings as some 'thing' whose destiny is to melt with 'the whole' is just 'through evolution' the 'human being' part, or level, will fade away as the One, whole, becomes more recognized, seen, and understood for who and what 'It' Truly is, exactly.
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am If I am right, this could be the root, the reference point for authentic human existence and also for respect, appreciation and interest of humans between each other.

What do you think?

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:28 pm
by Age
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am In our uniqueness we are all the same.
What is the 'our' word here referring to, exactly?

If it is 'human beings', then, obviously, 'collectively' 'you' are all 'the same'.

However, just as obvious is that 'individuality' 'you' are all 'unique', and 'different'.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am Subjects. Objects - it's all connotation. Metaphysically - you are what you think you are.

Language is the map, not the teritory. Stop mixing them up.
Are you able to know, and/or define, 'the territory?

If yes, then how, exactly?

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:34 pm
by Skepdick
Age wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am In our uniqueness we are all the same.
What is the 'our' word here referring to, exactly?

If it is 'human beings', then, obviously, 'collectively' 'you' are all 'the same'.

However, just as obvious is that 'individuality' 'you' are all 'unique', and 'different'.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am Subjects. Objects - it's all connotation. Metaphysically - you are what you think you are.

Language is the map, not the teritory. Stop mixing them up.
Are you able to know, and/or define, 'the territory?

If yes, then how, exactly?
Shut up, Age.

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:42 pm
by Age
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:34 pm
Age wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am In our uniqueness we are all the same.
What is the 'our' word here referring to, exactly?

If it is 'human beings', then, obviously, 'collectively' 'you' are all 'the same'.

However, just as obvious is that 'individuality' 'you' are all 'unique', and 'different'.
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:22 am Subjects. Objects - it's all connotation. Metaphysically - you are what you think you are.

Language is the map, not the teritory. Stop mixing them up.
Are you able to know, and/or define, 'the territory?

If yes, then how, exactly?
Shut up, Age.
Here 'we' have 'another one' who comes here, makes claims, then, absolutely, FAILS to back up and support its 'claim/s'.

It is like 'these posters' here were absolutely USELESS and INCAPABLE of just thinking and clarifying beyond just what they BELIEVE, and CLAIM, is true.

LOOK, 'you' made 'the claim', 'In our uniqueness we are all the same'. And, apparently from this forum anyway, all of you 'posters' here are INCAPABLE of just clarifying 'your claims', all of the time.

For example, "skepdick" cannot even just clarify who and/or what its use of the 'our' word is, here.

How much more USELESS could these human beings be?

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:22 pm
by Skepdick
Age wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:42 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:34 pm
Age wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:28 pm

What is the 'our' word here referring to, exactly?

If it is 'human beings', then, obviously, 'collectively' 'you' are all 'the same'.

However, just as obvious is that 'individuality' 'you' are all 'unique', and 'different'.


Are you able to know, and/or define, 'the territory?

If yes, then how, exactly?
Shut up, Age.
Here 'we' have 'another one' who comes here, makes claims, then, absolutely, FAILS to back up and support its 'claim/s'.

It is like 'these posters' here were absolutely USELESS and INCAPABLE of just thinking and clarifying beyond just what they BELIEVE, and CLAIM, is true.

LOOK, 'you' made 'the claim', 'In our uniqueness we are all the same'. And, apparently from this forum anyway, all of you 'posters' here are INCAPABLE of just clarifying 'your claims', all of the time.

For example, "skepdick" cannot even just clarify who and/or what its use of the 'our' word is, here.

How much more USELESS could these human beings be?
No, not like that.

Shut up better.

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:04 pm
by Fairy
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am
There are, obviously, infinite degrees and ways of mentally and existentially living this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, this is just the root, but human life cannot be made of roots only: we also need objects, connections, relationships, mixtures, but it seems to me that that feeling could be the root.
In this context I disagree with the buddhist concept that our individuality should be conceived as something whose destiny is to melt with the whole: this seems to me just metaphysics.

How do you make sense out the belief that there is a you existing as a separate entity apart from of the empirical reality that appears to be outside of you. How does that work?

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:06 pm
by Age
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 1:22 pm
Age wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:42 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:34 pm
Shut up, Age.
Here 'we' have 'another one' who comes here, makes claims, then, absolutely, FAILS to back up and support its 'claim/s'.

It is like 'these posters' here were absolutely USELESS and INCAPABLE of just thinking and clarifying beyond just what they BELIEVE, and CLAIM, is true.

LOOK, 'you' made 'the claim', 'In our uniqueness we are all the same'. And, apparently from this forum anyway, all of you 'posters' here are INCAPABLE of just clarifying 'your claims', all of the time.

For example, "skepdick" cannot even just clarify who and/or what its use of the 'our' word is, here.

How much more USELESS could these human beings be?
No, not like that.

Shut up better.
So, once again, 'we' have another poster here who when questioned and/or challenged is not able to clarify, nor support, its beliefs and/or claims here.

This one will not even just clarify who and/or what its very own use of the 'our' word is in reference to, exactly. Which would be about one of the most simplest and easiest things to do for an open and honest adult human being. And, it cannot even inform the readers here if it is even just able to know 'the territory' or not.

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:56 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am There are, obviously, infinite degrees and ways of mentally and existentially living this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, this is just the root, but human life cannot be made of roots only: we also need objects, connections, relationships, mixtures, but it seems to me that that feeling could be the root.
In this context I disagree with the buddhist concept that our individuality should be conceived as something whose destiny is to melt with the whole: this seems to me just metaphysics.

If I am right, this could be the root, the reference point for authentic human existence and also for respect, appreciation and interest of humans between each other.

What do you think?
You misunderstood Buddhism-proper which do not advocate on any view or belief as absolutely absolute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
Where did you get the idea Buddhism belief relate to 'melting with the whole' that is probably Hinduism.

Within Buddhism-proper everything is relative to the human conditions, i.e.
-one can be independent [only relatively] from one another with their own interests
-one can be intricately be a part of the whole
what is critical is to adopt whatever belief [relative] that is optimal to the existing conditions without being immoral and striving toward improving one's own moral competence.

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 6:31 am
by Iwannaplato
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:56 am
Angelo Cannata wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2024 10:03 am There are, obviously, infinite degrees and ways of mentally and existentially living this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, this is just the root, but human life cannot be made of roots only: we also need objects, connections, relationships, mixtures, but it seems to me that that feeling could be the root.
In this context I disagree with the buddhist concept that our individuality should be conceived as something whose destiny is to melt with the whole: this seems to me just metaphysics.

If I am right, this could be the root, the reference point for authentic human existence and also for respect, appreciation and interest of humans between each other.

What do you think?
You misunderstood Buddhism-proper which do not advocate on any view or belief as absolutely absolute.
You just used a phrase that is not found in AC's post which you are responding to and it is not found in Buddhism or denied as the case by Buddhism. So you told him that he doesn't understand Buddhism-proper - rather than Buddhism -based on a position he did not assert nor is entailed, with a strawman phrase/position unrelated to both Buddhism and his post.

It's never enough, it seems, for you to simply say something, you have to add 'absolute' or 'proper' to it. Here you add absolutely to absolute, which is such an extreme hedging of bets. It's not enough anymore with absolute, we have absolutely absolute as if any disagreeing with you is the most extreme opinion possible, so the other person has this unbelievable burden of proof. Not only must they prove (and supposedly have asserted) X, but they must prove not just absolute X, and not absolutely absolute X and then not just that Buddism asserts Y, but that Buddhism-proper asserts Y.

And yet anyone who disagrees with your positions is prone to violence chasing illusions philosophical gnat etc. You don't even notice how absolutely absolute you hold to your positions and how absolutely absolutely correct you think they are, all the while projecting extremity on everyone else. You don't even notice that what you call absolute - the mind independent reality assertion - is perfectly mirrored by your own absolute stance that there is no such thing. Two absolute stances, but only one you can see as absolute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
Where did you get the idea Buddhism belief relate to 'melting with the whole' that is probably Hinduism.
Oh, it fits both Buddhism and Hinduism. Though really conceptually we are already not individual selves, that is an illusion. There is no subject object split and we are objects. There is no self that persists through time, that is an illusion. Experientially the practitioner might go through the sense of melting into the whole, and might be encouraged to allow this, but actually they are just noticing that it is already the case.
Within Buddhism-proper everything is relative to the human conditions, i.e.
-one can be independent [only relatively] from one another with their own interests
-one can be intricately be a part of the whole
what is critical is to adopt whatever belief [relative] that is optimal to the existing conditions without being immoral and striving toward improving one's own moral competence.
This is the suburban view of Buddhism and is missing the ontology.
"All phenomena are without self. When one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification."
– Samyutta Nikaya 22:59
"All conditioned things are impermanent. When one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification."
– Dhammapada 277-279
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. In the cognized, there is only the cognized. This is how you should train yourself. When for you, Bahiya, there is only the seen... you will not be 'by that.' When you are not 'by that,' you will not be 'in that.' When you are not 'in that,' you will be neither here nor there nor in between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."
– Udana 1.10
"Just as a flame blown by the wind goes out and cannot be reckoned, so too a monk liberated by wisdom, having crossed over beyond the body and mind, becomes untraceable, like a flame gone out."
– Majjhima Nikaya 22
Or you could come at this via contemplation:
The Goose in the Bottle (Koan)
A Zen master set a koan for his student: “A baby goose is put into a bottle. It grows and grows until it is too big to get out. How do you get the goose out without breaking the bottle or harming the goose?”

After contemplating for some time, the student realized the answer: “Master, the goose is out!”
There is no self in the bottle of body.
The Empty Mind (Proverb)
"Empty yourself of everything—let the mind become still. Then see the original face before you were born."

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 2:23 pm
by Impenitent
Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

that would require controlling the actions of things that cannot be controlled, that is other humans...

self animation may help...

-Imp

edit: i.e. don't be a noumenon

Re: How can we humans avoid being just objects?

Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:27 am
by nivance
By treating each other with respect and empathy, valuing individuality, and fostering meaningful connections, we can avoid reducing people to mere objects.