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God DOES exist
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:04 am
by Walker
Professor John Lennox | God DOES exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otrqzITuSqE
Without fanfare, the talk begins with:
“I believe in God. I believe in the supernatural God who created the heavens and the earth. I believe in a God who holds the heavens and earth in existence. I believe that on the basis of rational evidence.”
With each of the three listenings so far, I’ve heard more. I must say, such rational presentations of mind do bring peace to the body, further enforcing a point he makes in the talk.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:57 am
by Veritas Aequitas
All he said is "I believe ...' "I believe ...' "I believe ...' "I believe ...' ..God exists
-he invoked the Cosmological Argument.
-the argument from Ethics
-Jesus resurrections
BUT provide no solid justifications that God exists as real.
see Transcript below
viewtopic.php?p=731330#p731330
What exists as real is contingent upon a specific collective-of-subjects, human-based framework and system of emergence, realization, cognition, [FSERC] knowledge and description of reality; the scientific FSERC is the gold standard of credibility and objectivity of real existence.
Theists will claim God exists as real within a theological FSERC, but because it rely more on faith than direct empirical evidences which lack testability and repeatability in contrast to the scientific FSERC.
The belief that God exist can at best has 0.1/100 credibility and objectivity of realness where the scientific FSERC is
indexed at 100/100.
It is Impossible for God to exists as Real
viewtopic.php?t=40229
Despite that God does not exist as a real thing,
God can exists ONLY as a
thought in the human mind which is of critical necessity to facilitate survival of the majority at present [not necessary future] to soothe the inevitable cognitive dissonances from an existential crisis [driven to survive at all costs but yet conscious of mortality].
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:01 am
by Fairy
Without belief there is nothing at all.
From belief to clarity.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:06 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:01 am
Without belief there is nothing at all.
From belief to clarity.
[Gettier aside] Heard of Justified True Beliefs??
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:12 am
by Veritas Aequitas
God DOES exist
Professor John Lennox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otrqzITuSqE
thank you very much ladies and gentlemen.
I believe in God.
I believe in the supernatural God who created the heavens and the earth.
I believe in a God who holds the heavens of the earth in existence.
I believe that are the basis of rational evidence.
similar to the beliefs held by the founders of this house who gave this University the motto.
dominus Illuminati Oh May ah.
they saw no contradiction between faith in God and the utmost excellence in rational inquiry.
if I dare mention my alma mater of Cambridge in this holy place I would remind you that on the door of the Cavendish laboratory in Cambridge were written the words.
greater the works of the Lord studied by all who delight in them.
as we look at the rise of science of the 16th and 17th centuries Alfred North Whitehead and many others commented
that men became scientific because they expected law in nature and they expected law in nature because they believed in the lawgiver.
so ladies and gentlemen I'm not ashamed of being both the scientists in the Christian because arguably Christianity gave them my subject.
what I am amazed at is that serious thinkers today continue to ask us to choose between God and science.
that's like asking people to choose between Henry Ford and engineering as an explanation of the motor car when Newton discovered his law of gravity he didn't say I've got a law I don't need God.
no he wrote the principia mathematica arguably the greatest work in the whole history of science.
because he saw that God is not the same kind of explanation as a scientific explanation.
God doesn't Pete Agency does not compete with mechanism and law.
why is there something rather than nothing.
Allan Sandage the brilliant cosmologists who became a Christian in his fifties said God is the answer to that question but.
people are now so desperate to show that the universe created itself from nothing where it seems to me to be an immediate oxymoron if I say X created Y I'm assuming the existence of extra explained the existence of Y.
if I say X created X I'm assuming the existence of extra explain the existence of X.
which simply shows that nonsense remains nonsense even if high-powered scientists utter it.
it reminds me a little bit of GK Chesterton who said.
it is absurd to complain that it is unthinkable for an unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing and then to pretend that it is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything.
the heavens declare the glory of God says the ancient Psalm.
we've unraveled a bit of that seeing the fine-tuning of the fundamental forces of nature.
it's something that's so striking to scientists at our demands explanation.
it seems to me that Arno Penzias hitted right he is the Nobel Prize winner who discovered the microwave background on which a lot of the evidence for the Big Bang is based.
he said astronomy leads us to a unique event.
a universe which was created out of nothing one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the right conditions required to rebid life.
and one which has an underlying one might say supernatural plan.
but I want to come to what I think is one of the fundamental arguments for theism.
I take it this house believes in reason that's why we're all here.
as a scientist I believe that the universe is rationally intelligible.
that is something that has struck some of the geniuses of science as demanding an explanation.
Einstein said the only incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible.
Vigna talked about the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics.
how is it that a mathematician thinking in her head in here can come up with equations that seem to fit the universe out there.
well how is it indeed because the irony of the Atheist position here is evident.
my atheist friends that I have many of them tell me that the driving force of evolution which eventually produced our human cognitive faculties reason included was not primarily concerned with truth at all but with survival.
and we all know ladies and gentlemen what has often happened and still happens to truth when individuals or commercial enterprises or nations feel themselves threatened and struggle for survival.
leading philosopher Alvin Plantinga if not today says of atheists are right that we are the product of mindless unguided natural processes.
then they have given a strong reason to doubt the reliability of human cognitive faculties.
therefore inevitably to doubt the validity of any belief that they produce including their atheism.
their biology and their belief in naturalism would therefore appear to be at war with each other in a conflict that is nothing at all to do with God.
yet my atheist friends still insist that it is rational for them to believe that the evolution of human reason was not directed for the purpose of discovering truth.
yet it is irrational for me to believe that human reason was designed and created by God to enable us to understand and believe the truth.
curious logic by contrast with that biblical theism asserts that ultimate reality is personal and intelligent that the reason science works and this was the motivating force that drove the great pioneers of science is that the universe out there and the human mind in here that does the science are ultimately the product of the same intelligent divine mind.
human beings are made we are told in God's image and that means that science can be done.
that makes infinite more sense to me as a scientist than atheism does.
now let me come briefly to ethics.
ethical behavior like rational behavior of course does not itself require religious belief.
this is consistent with the fact that humans are created in God's image as rational moral persons.
but just as I suggest that rationality cannot be explained without the existence of God.
so I dare to suggest that the existence of morality cannot be explained either.
as modern science sprang from judeo-christian sources so did the concept of human equality.
listen to a theist Jurgen Habermas arguably one of Germany's leading intellectuals.
he said that universalistic egalitarianism for which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life and solidarity the individual morality of conscience human rights and democracy is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice of the Christian ethic of love.
this legacy substantially unchanged has been the object of continual critical appropriation reinterpretation.
to this day there's no alternative to it everything else is just idle postmodern talk.
it seems to me he's setting the core of something important.
because the value of a human being on which sets egalitarianism rests is based not on what the human being can do but what she's made off were how she's made in God's image.
I never forget speaking when on one of my many visits to Russia to a colleague in the Academy of Sciences.
he said you know John we fought we could abolish God and retain a value for human beings we found we couldn't and we murdered millions of them.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn has said if I'm asked why is it that 60 million of my fellow countrymen were sacrificed.
he said the answer is we have forgotten God.
science of course marvelous as it is is limited.
even a Nobel Prize winner by analysing a [cake] cannot tell why it was made but.
aunt Matilda who made it continue.
she can reveal it to you but.
if she doesn't reveal it to you you'll never know.
that brings me to be my next evidence it's the same with the universe we can analyze it magnificently but.
ultimately if it has a maker and I believe it has only he can tell us what it's all about.
he's done so in the powerful narrative of the Bible.
in particular in its analysis of the problem with humanity not simply in terms of behavioral breakdown between people but a vertical breakdown of trust between us of the Creator.
the unique solution to that problem is not simply in terms of human ethical development although that's very important.
but in terms of something far deeper altogether.
the restoration of the fractured relationship of God through the salvation he has brought through Jesus Christ.
a radical relationship that empowers us to live ethically from God.
here we reached what for me is the chief evidence not only for the existence but the nature of God it is Jesus Christ.
he it was who not only taught the golden rule but embodied it fed the hungry healed the sick and suffering and welcomed society's outcasts brought honor and respect to the marginalized and ashamed and he's brought forgiveness and peace to multi millions around the world.
he's able to do this of course because though he was a man he uniquely never was only a man but God become human.
the central evidence for this startling claim is of course his historical resurrection from the dead that launched Christianity in the world.
this is of course ladies and gentlemen a crunch issue if Jesus rose from the dead death is not the end and atheism is false.
if Jesus did not rise from the dead Christianity is false.
I remember at Cambridge as a student listen to the brilliant Sir Norman Anderson a legal expert going through forensicly the evidence from his legal perspective.
as a brilliant lawyer and he said at the end of it the empty tomb them of Jesus forms a veritable rock on which all rationalistic theories of the resurrection guide themselves in vain just.
finally now as I read the Bible I do not only find intellectual satisfaction but I find a great deal of that.
I sense the voice of God speaking to me you say that's intensely personal but.
ladies and gentlemen we've been asked tonight about belief in God.
I want to strongly emphasize that God is not a theory he's a person.
if the origination of me qua person is a personal God then the most exciting thing really is is there a possibility of getting to know God.
so I don't simply believe there is a God I've come to know him and trust him and I have strong reasons for doing so because of Christ dying and rising again for me.
that is generated in me a sense of utterly unmerited forgiveness acceptance and peace that has enabled me to face the ugly side of my own nature and with God's help to do something about it but.
it's enabled me to face something else the hardest problem I faced as a Christian is the problem of evil and pain.
my niece getting a tumor at 22 that kills her.
what do I say to my sister.
this is the hardest problem we face but.
it seems to me that atheism here has no answer because by definition atheism believes that human death is the end so there is no ultimate hope but.
you see ladies and gentlemen we could stay here till midnight and beyond arguing as has been done in this university for centuries what a good god should might word could if not possibly might just pretty not dumb and we get nowhere.
so it seems to me there's another question we can ask and it's this.
granted that life is presents us with a double picture we see some beautiful things we see some ragged edges we see hurt and pain and we see joy.
how can we come to terms with that.
it seems to me here is no simplistic answer but a window into an answer and it's this.
if it is actually true that Jesus is as I believe him to be the son of God then we can ask the question what is God doing on a cross.
the answer comes back at the very least God has not remained distant from our human suffering but has become part of it.
the other side of that is this because Jesus rose from the dead he is going to be the ultimate judge.
now here's an irony because atheism has no ultimate hope of justice by definition.
the vast majority of people in the history of the world have died without justice and will die without justice.
if death is the end then of course they have no hope of ultimate justice but.
the promise in the new testament guaranteed by the resurrection of jesus is that he is to be the judge in the coming day.
so ladies and gentlemen those are some of the reasons why I believe that God is real and worthy to be trusted.
thank you
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:54 am
by Fairy
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:06 am
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:01 am
Without belief there is nothing at all.
From belief to clarity.
[Gettier aside] Heard of Justified True Beliefs??
No, what’s that?
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 6:59 am
by Skepdick
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 5:06 am
[Gettier aside] Heard of Justified True Beliefs??
I have. Here's a justified true belief: Tomorrow you will either die or you won't.
Justified by the law of excluded middle this qualifies for knowledge.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:02 am
by Fairy
Walker wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:04 am
With each of the three listenings so far, I’ve heard more. I must say, such rational presentations of mind do bring peace to the body, further enforcing a point he makes in the talk.
The only thing that brings peace to the body is resting in stillness and thoughtfree awareness. I should know I’m an expert at bed yoga. Lying still and peaceful for hours.
In other words. R.I.P
All you nobody wanna be somebody’s.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:25 am
by Walker
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:02 am
The only thing that brings peace to the body is resting in stillness and thoughtfree awareness.
To those of a certain capacity, this is true, but that's only half the story. The other half is contemplation, as in Christian contemplation, which requires thought.
You meditate to live; living requires thought and living makes meditation possible.
If you live to meditate, you're looking at the wrong end of the horse, Hoss.
Professor John Lennox wrote:… biblical theism asserts that ultimate reality is personal and intelligent that the reason science works and this was the motivating force that drove the great pioneers of science is that the universe out there and the human mind in here that does the science are ultimately the product of the same intelligent divine mind.
Human beings are made we are told in God's image and that means that science can be done.
That makes infinite more sense to me as a scientist than atheism does.
Commentary: Ahhh. Peace.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:58 am
by Walker
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:02 am I should know I’m an expert at bed yoga. Lying still and peaceful for hours.
Fortunately for you, you don't live under constant threat to your existence, as do some of certain capacity who transcend circumstance to perceive truth.
For example, the way I see it, Viktor Frankl transcended circumstance via contemplation:
While laboring in a German concentration camp during WWII, and not knowing what had become of his family and powerless to learn, Viktor Frankl realized through contemplation that love is the meaning and purpose of life, and that realization found in the midst of brutal physical and psychological conditions gave him physical peace, as peace of mind is wont to do, due to the body/mind connection. The question is, does he have nightmares and if so, does he cling to them?
We could conclude from his contemplative insight that Love is one of the thousand names of the nameless thing (although I don't know if Frankl himself concluded that), and the unconditional love of which you oft' speak is not conditioned by such circumstance as laying about like a lazy lout in the middle of the afternoon, although one's particular circumstance can make possible the realization of love's perpetual permutations through the living of a faceted life cut like a diamond with thought, if that is meant to happen.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2024 9:26 am
by Walker
Well, ineffability does have its drawbacks.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:32 pm
by Osric
I accept that God might possibly exist, I just don't believe in the bible or that Jesus is the son of God. However, there are some good things in the bible that could improve how we live. My favorite quote from the bible is "Let him without sin cast the first stone." Another good quote is "Judge not lest thee be judged yourself. It is okay to believe in God and not believe in the bible or Jesus.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:55 pm
by promethean75
"Let him without sin cast the first stone." Another good quote is "Judge not lest thee be judged yourself."
These two favorites would lead to anarchy. Also, such rules are impractical and could never be followed. U couldn't ignore a judges ruling because he stole a cookie from the break room fridge thirty minutes before court or pinched the stenographer's butt in the hallway. He's still going to judge you, and that's what we pay him to do.
If followed literally, those two scripture notes would create a complete breakdown in society. But i get it. It's not to be taken literally. It's to be a metaphor conveying the importance of humility and modesty; that u too broke a rule or a law or committed a sin once, and so this man is like u. Have mercy and remember your own fallible nature.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:32 am
by puto
Occultism in this mantra, "As above, so below." God and the universe is ultimately a single, vast, conscious and independent existence even if immaterial. So, with the first principle the occult is ambivalent.
Re: God DOES exist
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2024 2:54 pm
by Fairy
Walker wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2024 8:25 am
Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 7:02 am
The only thing that brings peace to the body is resting in stillness and thoughtfree awareness.
To those of a certain capacity, this is true, but that's only half the story. The other half is contemplation, as in Christian contemplation, which requires thought.
You meditate to live; living requires thought and living makes meditation possible.
If you live to meditate, you're looking at the wrong end of the horse, Hoss.
Professor John Lennox wrote:… biblical theism asserts that ultimate reality is personal and intelligent that the reason science works and this was the motivating force that drove the great pioneers of science is that the universe out there and the human mind in here that does the science are ultimately the product of the same intelligent divine mind.
Human beings are made we are told in God's image and that means that science can be done.
That makes infinite more sense to me as a scientist than atheism does.
Commentary: Ahhh. Peace.
Well of course it's only half a story. Every half brain that ever lived knows that looking through the wrong end of the telescope is a no brainer.
You have no image of yourself, so go and tell who ever it was that told you were made in the image of God to stop lying to you.
Mediation is evil, it implies two, another lie you've been sold.
Living does not require thought. The body can never tell itself it's alive or dead. Thought does that, and 'thought' is the biggest mystery that will never be solved, like ever. It could just simply be an illusion like the idea (I am) is an illusion.