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the question of time

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:10 am
by Peter Kropotkin
In reading about the Enlightenment, I see that many of
the ''Philosophes'' were very well versed in ancient Latin
and Greek.... virtually all of them including Rousseau read
the Ancients in their original language......

So, what they did was compare the ancients to the current
situation, 17th and 18th century, and found the moderns rather, lacking......
but it was this comparison over time that allowed the ""Philosophes''
work out the Enlightenment project.... Many a ''philosophies''
lived and breathed in ancient Rome and Greece.......

Edward Gibben of the ''Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'''
stated in his autobiography, that while in Rome, his every step
was filled with his readings of the ancients.. here is where Caesar
fell, here is where Cicero made his famous speeches and here is
where Mark Antony held his famous speech.... every step in
Rome was, for Gibben a memory of his readings...
as was true for virtually all of the educated of the Enlightenment
era.....

and let us compare ourselves today to the ''Philosophes''
of the 17 and 18 century..... virtually no one today, reads
Latin or Greek.... and very few even read Cicero or even ''Caesar's
war in Gaul'' today, even in translations.....
there is no sense of the past in us today....
Reading about George Washington, one may as well be reading
about Caesar, it has no meaning or power in the people today...

Our American Civil War may as well be the Roman Civil war given how little
attention is given to it in our schools.....or in our education.....
the past no longer means anything in our society today.....
and that bodes very badly for us going into the future......
which is why the lesson of Hitler is lost on our generation given
the rise of IQ45... who is Hitler lite....

but it is not the past that has been lost, we have no sense of the
future either..... our time frame in which we pay attention to is
roughly about 3 months....for example, the election is roughly
a little more than 2 and half months.... and most Americans
will wake up tomorrow and discover that.... and why tomorrow?
it is the day after Labor Day... the unofficial end of summer....
and that is the day people traditionally begin to pay attention to
the election....

but three months also has another meaning.... it is the business world
quarterly system.... I work retail.. there is no mention of next year or
how we progress into the next couple of years.... never... at most,
at most the company goes from quarter to quarter....we begin to stock
Halloween merchandise around the middle of August, and
Thanksgiving stuff is brought out toward the end of September....
again, a couple of months before hand.....that is about as
far ahead as our company thinks..... quarter to quarter
my manager thinks about as far ahead as his bonuses.... that is
all he is focused on... he manages to his bonus, if it doesn't
impact his bonus, he doesn't care, and this is true about
most managers..... they manage to their bonuses.... which is
quarter to quarter...... if he is emphasizing something, that is
something he is getting a bonus on....so, lately he has been
pushing surveys.... which is a survey of how well we are doing
on our pin pads.... that tells me that he is getting a bonus
based on how many surveys he is getting.... now morale
may totally suck, but that isn't part of his bonus, so he doesn't
give a shit..... and this emphasis on the quarter to quarter in
businesses in which profits are the deciding factor, that
means that the corporation has no interest in anything past
6 months... there is no sense of the future within the business
world.... just bonus time to the next bonus time......

In a world where the time is from bonus to bonus, there is no
sense of tomorrow..... there is no plan that goes out any further
than 6 months...

and this is true of government as it is of business..... the famous
Soviet 5 year plans were a failure, but at least there was a sense
of time past 6 months.... or a year......

and that is what we must begin to do....to work out our plans
past 6 months or a year.... both individually and collectively....
what is my goal next year or in 5 years is as important as
we work out what is our collective goal, social and political
goals a year or even 5 years out.......

Kropotkin

Re: the question of time

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2024 3:16 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
not only do we not have a sense of time, no past and no
future, we also lack an identity....... But Kropotkin,
I am a male, an American or British or French or Chinese,
whatever the case maybe, I am a checker or whatever job one
has.....but the reality is those are the roles we play, not
our identity.... quick, tell me who you are without mentioning
your vocation.... the isms that help us create identity,
nationalism, Catholicism, Liberalism, conservatism, capitalism,
to name a few isms of our modern age, they are simply roles
we play today.... take capitalism for example, its corrosive effects
are plain for anyone to see.. all they need to do is look....
within capitalism lies my own roles that the state/society
demands I play... a producer, a worker, a consumer.....
I am what I buy, I am what I create at work, I work at my
factory lite job.... the vast majority of jobs in America are
service industry jobs... they don't create anything, they are
simply work jobs... fix a sink, repair a stove, replace a carpet,
fix my car.... service jobs.... jobs that are a byproduct of the modern
world of consumerism.... where do we find identity in service jobs?

we have no past, no future, no identity..... we have no direction.....
this is not just an individual problem but also a collective problem,
a state/social problem that has created, in part, our collective
malaise of America today..... but the question will be raised,
but Kropotkin, if this were true, wouldn't it be on the news?
is best answered by surprisingly enough, Nietzsche...

''God is dead.... and we have killed him....

....Here the madman fell silent and looked about his listeners;
and they too fell silent and stared at him in astonishment. At
last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out.
''I come too early'' he said then, ''my time is not yet. This tremendous
event is still on its way... it has not yet reached the ears of man.
Lightning and thunder requires time, the light of the stars requires
time, deeds, through done, still require time to be seen and heard.
This deed is still more distant from then than the distant stars- and
yet they have done it themselves''

the emptiness of our lives is here...we just haven't seen it yet... it takes
time for the news to be heard.....our modern isms are dead...
capitalism, communism, nationalism, religions, all dead...
we just need ears to hear..... says the deaf man.....

Kropotkin

Re: the question of time

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:57 am
by Age
The measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events is known more succinctly by, and with, the single word 'time'.

'Time' is not some physical thing that has, nor could, cause an effect.

So, if there is any question for example like, 'What is 'time', exactly?' Then the answer is 'time' is just a word that denotes and refers to the measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events. And, I say and use the 'perceived' because there are no actual separate 'events', with an 's', as there is, actually, only One event, only, which can and is only separated by conception or thought alone.

Re: the question of time

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2024 9:38 pm
by cpuproc78
Age wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:57 am 'Time' is not some physical thing that has, nor could, cause an effect.
There could be a doubt here because of the typically physical concept of spacetime. And secondly, the passage of time causes the growth or decomposition of physical objects, so we would be dealing here with the influence of time.

Re: the question of time

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:03 am
by lymechanic
Age wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:57 am The measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events is known more succinctly by, and with, the single word 'time'.

'Time' is not some physical thing that has, nor could, cause an effect.

So, if there is any question for example like, 'What is 'time', exactly?' Then the answer is 'time' is just a word that denotes and refers to the measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events. And, I say and use the 'perceived' because there are no actual separate 'events', with an 's', as there is, actually, only One event, only, which can and is only separated by conception or thought alone.
How does this conceptualization of time affect our understanding of causality and change in the universe?

Re: the question of time

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:35 am
by Age
lymechanic wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:03 am
Age wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:57 am The measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events is known more succinctly by, and with, the single word 'time'.

'Time' is not some physical thing that has, nor could, cause an effect.

So, if there is any question for example like, 'What is 'time', exactly?' Then the answer is 'time' is just a word that denotes and refers to the measuring of the duration between, 'perceived', events. And, I say and use the 'perceived' because there are no actual separate 'events', with an 's', as there is, actually, only One event, only, which can and is only separated by conception or thought alone.
How does this conceptualization of time affect our understanding of causality and change in the universe?
'This conceptualization of time' does NOT affect 'our' understanding of causality and change in the Universe.

'Our' 'understanding', of ANY 'thing', is whatever 'it' is.

The definition, or 'conceptualization', of 'time', which I provided, only 'affects' 'one's understanding' in whatever way 'that one' ALLOWS.

Maybe if you are MORE SPECIFIC about what the words, 'The conceptualization of time' IS, EXACTLY, then I MIGHT BE ABLE to answer your question, here, BETTER.

See, 'the conceptualization', of 'time', that I HAVE might be VERY DIFFERENT TO, 'the conceptualization', of 'time', which you HAVE.

HOW ANY thing, like, for example, 'this conceptualization of time' AFFECT ANY one's 'understanding', of ANY thing, is ALWAYS dependent upon each and EVERY one's, previous, 'past experiences'.

Re: the question of time

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:37 am
by Eodnhoj7
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:10 am In reading about the Enlightenment, I see that many of
the ''Philosophes'' were very well versed in ancient Latin
and Greek.... virtually all of them including Rousseau read
the Ancients in their original language......

So, what they did was compare the ancients to the current
situation, 17th and 18th century, and found the moderns rather, lacking......
but it was this comparison over time that allowed the ""Philosophes''
work out the Enlightenment project.... Many a ''philosophies''
lived and breathed in ancient Rome and Greece.......

Edward Gibben of the ''Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'''
stated in his autobiography, that while in Rome, his every step
was filled with his readings of the ancients.. here is where Caesar
fell, here is where Cicero made his famous speeches and here is
where Mark Antony held his famous speech.... every step in
Rome was, for Gibben a memory of his readings...
as was true for virtually all of the educated of the Enlightenment
era.....

and let us compare ourselves today to the ''Philosophes''
of the 17 and 18 century..... virtually no one today, reads
Latin or Greek.... and very few even read Cicero or even ''Caesar's
war in Gaul'' today, even in translations.....
there is no sense of the past in us today....
Reading about George Washington, one may as well be reading
about Caesar, it has no meaning or power in the people today...

Our American Civil War may as well be the Roman Civil war given how little
attention is given to it in our schools.....or in our education.....
the past no longer means anything in our society today.....
and that bodes very badly for us going into the future......
which is why the lesson of Hitler is lost on our generation given
the rise of IQ45... who is Hitler lite....

but it is not the past that has been lost, we have no sense of the
future either..... our time frame in which we pay attention to is
roughly about 3 months....for example, the election is roughly
a little more than 2 and half months.... and most Americans
will wake up tomorrow and discover that.... and why tomorrow?
it is the day after Labor Day... the unofficial end of summer....
and that is the day people traditionally begin to pay attention to
the election....

but three months also has another meaning.... it is the business world
quarterly system.... I work retail.. there is no mention of next year or
how we progress into the next couple of years.... never... at most,
at most the company goes from quarter to quarter....we begin to stock
Halloween merchandise around the middle of August, and
Thanksgiving stuff is brought out toward the end of September....
again, a couple of months before hand.....that is about as
far ahead as our company thinks..... quarter to quarter
my manager thinks about as far ahead as his bonuses.... that is
all he is focused on... he manages to his bonus, if it doesn't
impact his bonus, he doesn't care, and this is true about
most managers..... they manage to their bonuses.... which is
quarter to quarter...... if he is emphasizing something, that is
something he is getting a bonus on....so, lately he has been
pushing surveys.... which is a survey of how well we are doing
on our pin pads.... that tells me that he is getting a bonus
based on how many surveys he is getting.... now morale
may totally suck, but that isn't part of his bonus, so he doesn't
give a shit..... and this emphasis on the quarter to quarter in
businesses in which profits are the deciding factor, that
means that the corporation has no interest in anything past
6 months... there is no sense of the future within the business
world.... just bonus time to the next bonus time......

In a world where the time is from bonus to bonus, there is no
sense of tomorrow..... there is no plan that goes out any further
than 6 months...

and this is true of government as it is of business..... the famous
Soviet 5 year plans were a failure, but at least there was a sense
of time past 6 months.... or a year......

and that is what we must begin to do....to work out our plans
past 6 months or a year.... both individually and collectively....
what is my goal next year or in 5 years is as important as
we work out what is our collective goal, social and political
goals a year or even 5 years out.......

Kropotkin
Time burns away all things. It is the all-consuming God of experience.

Re: the question of time

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 6:57 am
by Age
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:37 am
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:10 am In reading about the Enlightenment, I see that many of
the ''Philosophes'' were very well versed in ancient Latin
and Greek.... virtually all of them including Rousseau read
the Ancients in their original language......

So, what they did was compare the ancients to the current
situation, 17th and 18th century, and found the moderns rather, lacking......
but it was this comparison over time that allowed the ""Philosophes''
work out the Enlightenment project.... Many a ''philosophies''
lived and breathed in ancient Rome and Greece.......

Edward Gibben of the ''Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'''
stated in his autobiography, that while in Rome, his every step
was filled with his readings of the ancients.. here is where Caesar
fell, here is where Cicero made his famous speeches and here is
where Mark Antony held his famous speech.... every step in
Rome was, for Gibben a memory of his readings...
as was true for virtually all of the educated of the Enlightenment
era.....

and let us compare ourselves today to the ''Philosophes''
of the 17 and 18 century..... virtually no one today, reads
Latin or Greek.... and very few even read Cicero or even ''Caesar's
war in Gaul'' today, even in translations.....
there is no sense of the past in us today....
Reading about George Washington, one may as well be reading
about Caesar, it has no meaning or power in the people today...

Our American Civil War may as well be the Roman Civil war given how little
attention is given to it in our schools.....or in our education.....
the past no longer means anything in our society today.....
and that bodes very badly for us going into the future......
which is why the lesson of Hitler is lost on our generation given
the rise of IQ45... who is Hitler lite....

but it is not the past that has been lost, we have no sense of the
future either..... our time frame in which we pay attention to is
roughly about 3 months....for example, the election is roughly
a little more than 2 and half months.... and most Americans
will wake up tomorrow and discover that.... and why tomorrow?
it is the day after Labor Day... the unofficial end of summer....
and that is the day people traditionally begin to pay attention to
the election....

but three months also has another meaning.... it is the business world
quarterly system.... I work retail.. there is no mention of next year or
how we progress into the next couple of years.... never... at most,
at most the company goes from quarter to quarter....we begin to stock
Halloween merchandise around the middle of August, and
Thanksgiving stuff is brought out toward the end of September....
again, a couple of months before hand.....that is about as
far ahead as our company thinks..... quarter to quarter
my manager thinks about as far ahead as his bonuses.... that is
all he is focused on... he manages to his bonus, if it doesn't
impact his bonus, he doesn't care, and this is true about
most managers..... they manage to their bonuses.... which is
quarter to quarter...... if he is emphasizing something, that is
something he is getting a bonus on....so, lately he has been
pushing surveys.... which is a survey of how well we are doing
on our pin pads.... that tells me that he is getting a bonus
based on how many surveys he is getting.... now morale
may totally suck, but that isn't part of his bonus, so he doesn't
give a shit..... and this emphasis on the quarter to quarter in
businesses in which profits are the deciding factor, that
means that the corporation has no interest in anything past
6 months... there is no sense of the future within the business
world.... just bonus time to the next bonus time......

In a world where the time is from bonus to bonus, there is no
sense of tomorrow..... there is no plan that goes out any further
than 6 months...

and this is true of government as it is of business..... the famous
Soviet 5 year plans were a failure, but at least there was a sense
of time past 6 months.... or a year......

and that is what we must begin to do....to work out our plans
past 6 months or a year.... both individually and collectively....
what is my goal next year or in 5 years is as important as
we work out what is our collective goal, social and political
goals a year or even 5 years out.......

Kropotkin
Time burns away all things.
This is OBVIOUSLY False, AND Wrong. [/quote]

'Time' is just the word USED, which denotes the measuring of the duration between perceived events, ONLY.

There is NO actual thing' as time, which COULD so-call 'burn ANY thing away', let alone ALL things away.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:37 am It is the all-consuming God of experience.
What could 'this' even MEAN or be REFERRING TO, EXACTLY, when God, the Universe, 'matter', AND, 'space' are, ACTUALLY, ETERNALLY HERE - NOW? With the Universe, or 'God', in the physical sense, being INFINITE, AS WELL.

So, what is 'it', EXACTLY, which 'this one' BELIEVES, ABSOLUTELY, some so-called 'time' or 'God of experience' 'thing' IS CONSUMING 'ALL things'?