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Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:36 pm
by bahman
Determinism is a system of thought in which any event uniquely is caused by another former event. Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation, to do or not do for example. Doubt therefore appears in a situation where there are at least two options to choose from. This means that in such a situation there are two events available for causation in which one of them can be chosen and caused. This is against the definition of determinism. Therefore, the determinism is false.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:08 pm
by Flannel Jesus
We don't know what's going to happen in the future, therefore there's no answer about what's going to happen in the future? That doesn't seem like a sufficient proof to me... "Feelings" of uncertainty don't decide what's true and what's not.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:22 pm
by bahman
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:08 pm
We don't know what's going to happen in the future, therefore there's no answer about what's going to happen in the future?
Uncertainty in the future is real. That is when we doubt. The options are therefore real when we have doubts. The existence of options means that a chain of causality forks at the point when there are options. The very existence of forks means that determinism is false since within determinism any event is uniquely determined by the previous event.
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:08 pm
That doesn't seem like a sufficient proof to me... "Feelings" of uncertainty don't decide what's true and what's not.
Yes, uncertainty does not decide. The mind or the self decides when it faces doubt.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:53 pm
by Flannel Jesus
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:22 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:08 pm
We don't know what's going to happen in the future, therefore there's no answer about what's going to happen in the future?
Uncertainty in the future is real. That is when we doubt. The options are therefore real when we have doubts. The existence of options means that a chain of causality forks at the point when there are options. The very existence of forks means that determinism is false since within determinism any event is uniquely determined by the previous event.
That doesn't seem like a sufficient proof to me... "Feelings" of uncertainty don't decide what's true and what's not.
Yes, uncertainty does not decide. The mind or the self decides when it faces doubt.
[/quote]
These just sound like raw assertions. Where's the proof or reasning?
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:02 pm
by bahman
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:53 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:22 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:08 pm
We don't know what's going to happen in the future, therefore there's no answer about what's going to happen in the future?
Uncertainty in the future is real. That is when we doubt. The options are therefore real when we have doubts. The existence of options means that a chain of causality forks at the point when there are options. The very existence of forks means that determinism is false since within determinism any event is uniquely determined by the previous event.
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:53 pm
That doesn't seem like a sufficient proof to me... "Feelings" of uncertainty don't decide what's true and what's not.
Yes, uncertainty does not decide. The mind or the self decides when it faces doubt.
These just sound like raw assertions. Where's the proof or reasning?
Which proof do you want to start with?
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:58 pm
by Flannel Jesus
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:02 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:53 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:22 pm
Uncertainty in the future is real. That is when we doubt. The options are therefore real when we have doubts. The existence of options means that a chain of causality forks at the point when there are options. The very existence of forks means that determinism is false since within determinism any event is uniquely determined by the previous event.
Yes, uncertainty does not decide. The mind or the self decides when it faces doubt.
These just sound like raw assertions. Where's the proof or reasning?
Which proof do you want to start with?
It's your ideas, you lead the way
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:01 pm
by bahman
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:58 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:02 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:53 pm
These just sound like raw assertions. Where's the proof or reasning?
Which proof do you want to start with?
It's your ideas, you lead the way
How about the proof for the existence of the mind, the proof that I call the argument from change?
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 9:23 am
by Impenitent
you were determined to doubt
-Imp
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:28 am
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:36 pm
Determinism is a system of thought in which
any event uniquely is caused by another former event. Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation, to do or not do for example. Doubt therefore appears in a situation where there are at least two options to choose from. This means that in such a situation there are two events available for causation in which one of them can be chosen and caused. This is against the definition of determinism. Therefore, the determinism is false.
Or
Doubt is a cognitive process where an organism is conscious of mixed desires/thoughts. This process will in the end lead to making one of those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.
Two tectonic plates meet. An incredily complicated set of forces are possibly going towards different results. There is some upward motion perhaps toward mountain formation, there is agitation, perhaps leading to earthquakes which minimize the upward trends, there is subduction of one plate beneath another, leading to volcanic activity. It would seem like a number of different formations are possible after a period where the two plates are 'wrestling' with each other.
If that areas of the world where the two plates are meeting was conscious, it might think that it could go in any of a number of directions. But actually it's going to end up that given the forces and their different strengths and other conditions of the materials involved only one outcome is possible.
We have limited knowledge, even of ourselves, and not all qualia are necessary correct evaluations of what is going on.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:35 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:28 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:36 pm
Determinism is a system of thought in which
any event uniquely is caused by another former event. Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation, to do or not do for example. Doubt therefore appears in a situation where there are at least two options to choose from. This means that in such a situation there are two events available for causation in which one of them can be chosen and caused. This is against the definition of determinism. Therefore, the determinism is false.
Or
Doubt is a cognitive process where an organism is conscious of mixed desires/thoughts. This process will in the end lead to making one of those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.
You wouldn't doubt if you have a stronger desire for one option.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:38 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:28 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:36 pm
Determinism is a system of thought in which
any event uniquely is caused by another former event. Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation, to do or not do for example. Doubt therefore appears in a situation where there are at least two options to choose from. This means that in such a situation there are two events available for causation in which one of them can be chosen and caused. This is against the definition of determinism. Therefore, the determinism is false.
Or
Doubt is a cognitive process where an organism is conscious of mixed desires/thoughts. This process will in the end lead to making one of those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.
Two tectonic plates meet. An incredily complicated set of forces are possibly going towards different results. There is some upward motion perhaps toward mountain formation, there is agitation, perhaps leading to earthquakes which minimize the upward trends, there is subduction of one plate beneath another, leading to volcanic activity. It would seem like a number of different formations are possible after a period where the two plates are 'wrestling' with each other.
If that areas of the world where the two plates are meeting was conscious, it might think that it could go in any of a number of directions. But actually it's going to end up that given the forces and their different strengths and other conditions of the materials involved only one outcome is possible.
We have limited knowledge, even of ourselves, and not all qualia are necessary correct evaluations of what is going on.
I would argue that even if determinism is the case, there's a sense in which it's not an illusion - but it would be an emergent sense of possibility rather than a fundamental one. One that considers counterfactuals very carefully.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/caus ... erfactual/
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:15 pm
by Iwannaplato
I assume you mean free will is not an illusion (not determinism). Could you contrast your thoughts with mine? Do we differ? I admit to just looking at the beginning of the Stanford article. I don't see anything yet with your sentence above that makes me think we differ. I was arguing that Bahman's idea that doubt shows determinism is false doesn't work. Do you disagree?
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:19 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:35 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:28 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:36 pm
Determinism is a system of thought in which
any event uniquely is caused by another former event. Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation, to do or not do for example. Doubt therefore appears in a situation where there are at least two options to choose from. This means that in such a situation there are two events available for causation in which one of them can be chosen and caused. This is against the definition of determinism. Therefore, the determinism is false.
Or
Doubt is a cognitive process where an organism is conscious of mixed desires/thoughts. This process will in the end lead to making one of those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.
You wouldn't doubt if you have a stronger desire for one option.
You're looking at this situation as static and also, it seems to me, assuming everything is conscious. You are drawn to ask out Sabrina. But you feel some kind of doubt. You spend some time with that doubt. There could be hundreds of factors - guilt, shame, fear, some unconscious sense that actually she's not a nice perosn, attraction, the coolness of being with her and so on. These different feelings and thoughts get triggered by hearing she is single. We don't just work all that out in a second. And the conscious mind can think 'I should do this' and the unconscious mind may well represent more of you but it is also more suppressed. We are more like a committee that has to work things out - at least when we have doubts. The information that she is single is sinking in, hitting more facets of yourself. It's a process and, to a determinist, an inevitable one. Why does the doubt qualia undermine causation?
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:22 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:19 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:35 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:28 am
Or
Doubt is a cognitive process where an organism is conscious of mixed desires/thoughts. This process will in the end lead to making one of those choices, despite a partial pull to one or the other. The stronger desire or assessment will win out, and only that assessement or desire could have won out, but the organism is under the illusion, given its own mixed feelings/thoughts, that it 'might choose either way.
You wouldn't doubt if you have a stronger desire for one option.
You're looking at this situation as static and also, it seems to me, assuming everything is conscious. You are drawn to ask out Sabrina. But you feel some kind of doubt. You spend some time with that doubt. There could be hundreds of factors - guilt, shame, fear, some unconscious sense that actually she's not a nice perosn, attraction, the coolness of being with her and so on. These different feelings and thoughts get triggered by hearing she is single. We don't just work all that out in a second. And the conscious mind can think 'I should do this' and the unconscious mind may well represent more of you but it is also more suppressed. We are more like a committee that has to work things out - at least when we have doubts. The information that she is single is sinking in, hitting more facets of yourself. It's a process and, to a determinist, an inevitable one. Why does the doubt qualia undermine causation?
Because the chain of causality forks at the moment that you have doubt.
Re: Doubts are real therefore determinism is false
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:27 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:22 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:19 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:35 pm
You wouldn't doubt if you have a stronger desire for one option.
You're looking at this situation as static and also, it seems to me, assuming everything is conscious. You are drawn to ask out Sabrina. But you feel some kind of doubt. You spend some time with that doubt. There could be hundreds of factors - guilt, shame, fear, some unconscious sense that actually she's not a nice perosn, attraction, the coolness of being with her and so on. These different feelings and thoughts get triggered by hearing she is single. We don't just work all that out in a second. And the conscious mind can think 'I should do this' and the unconscious mind may well represent more of you but it is also more suppressed. We are more like a committee that has to work things out - at least when we have doubts. The information that she is single is sinking in, hitting more facets of yourself. It's a process and, to a determinist, an inevitable one. Why does the doubt qualia undermine causation?
Because the chain of causality forks at the moment that you have doubt.
Presented with a decision -----> different parts of the self have different reactions ------> doubt feeling while the negotiation and feeling into the decision takes place ------> decision. I see no reason to assume that the feeling of doubt isn't just one of the effects of facing something without internal unity. We have parts. We are not monads. A struggle takes place, not unlike the tectonic plates churning into each other. It is unresolved for a time, then it resolves. Doubt one effect in the chain. Of course, there are simultanous effects at the same time, that is, as the doubt. The trigger is eliciting changes in the self also.