Philosophy Now Forum

One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir. Also, there can be some who worship God out of fear who don't really believe in a God to begin with. Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it. Take a look at the world around you, I see a world in trouble and we are the ones who are responsible for making it better. If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction. I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship. Love, obey, and believe or there will be pain and suffering. To me, this taints the relationship with God.

A second motivator is desire, it seems to me one of the reasons people worship and obey God is because they are expecting something in return, such as blessings. miracles, and an afterlife. Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them? Like fear based faith, desire can also taint a relationship with God. Personally, I find the void more pleasant and desirable over an after life anyways.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir.

That's not worship. That's just anxiety. If you read the Bible, "pain and suffering to be inflicted" is not at all the emphasis. Freedom from fear is. Relationship is. Salvation is. But not punishment. (See 1 John 4:17-19)

Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it.

That's to be expected, if you don't know God. "God is love." (1 John 4:8) If you don't know the Source of love, then how will you ever know real love?

Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them?

Ask Job. Do you know who he was? He's the subject of the oldest book in the canon. So what you're saying is not something that sets the tone for the Bible, nor is it what the Bible tells people to expect. As Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear,

Worship is undignified; there's no excuse for it.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir. Also, there can be some who worship God out of fear who don't really believe in a God to begin with. Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it. Take a look at the world around you, I see a world in trouble and we are the ones who are responsible for making it better. If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction. I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship. Love, obey, and believe or there will be pain and suffering. To me, this taints the relationship with God.

A second motivator is desire, it seems to me one of the reasons people worship and obey God is because they are expecting something in return, such as blessings. miracles, and an afterlife. Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them? Like fear based faith, desire can also taint a relationship with God. Personally, I find the void more pleasant and desirable over an after life anyways.

Really? That's not been my experience at all. Just about everyone I know who is religious, started in their religion because of familial and social pressure/tradition, not because of any doctrine.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir.

This is just another 'irrational fear'. Si, if this is a 'major motivator', then it is irrational.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm Also, there can be some who worship God out of fear who don't really believe in a God to begin with. Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it. Take a look at the world around you, I see a world in trouble and we are the ones who are responsible for making it better.

So, if adult human beings are the ones who are responsible for making 'the world', the way it is, then how would this have anything to do with God, Itself?

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction.

1. God is not male gendered.

2. How Truly immature is a species where the, supposed, 'grown up' ones blame something else for that thing's, supposed, 'inaction', for their own self-created perceived 'suffering'.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship. Love, obey, and believe or there will be pain and suffering. To me, this taints the relationship with God.

Where, exactly, are you getting this completely False and Wrong misinformation/misinterpretation from?

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm A second motivator is desire, it seems to me one of the reasons people worship and obey God is because they are expecting something in return, such as blessings. miracles, and an afterlife.

Even all of these 'expections', in relation to individuals, is a complete complete misunderstanding.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them? Like fear based faith, desire can also taint a relationship with God. Personally, I find the void more pleasant and desirable over an after life anyways.

Okay.

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction. I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship.

How about forgetting all this silly god nonsense, ceaselessly putting the blame for all our suffering on something which doesn't exist or never shown itself to exist and instead assign ALL of it where it properly belongs...squarely on us as the sole perpetrators of everything regarded as evil and malicious! The relationships we have with each other are of far greater consequence than any overlord our imagination created to have a relationship with.

BTW, god loves you the way a void loves you.

"If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction."

I've thought about this problem a great deal and I'll show u what I've come up with.

Imagine (just do it man i know it's ridiculous) being in the company of god after u die. U stand before him as he informs u of the eternal happiness to come and you're delighted. Then he akses u 'now that u see what you've earned through your faith and commitment, do u think what u went through to get all this, was worth it?'

U could answer in two ways. One way is to answer that 'yes' obviously it was worth it... all that shit is over with, history, and now I'm in eternal bliss. You're damn right it was worth it, G.

The other way u could answer would be to return with a question that challenges god's omnipotence; even tho it was worth it, wouldn't it have been even better if i could have lived a wonderful life and also eternal bliss afterward? Unless the suffering was necessary in some weird way (which shouldn't be the case if u can do and create anything), it seems to be gratuitous and without any real purpose.

Now we have to wonder why suffering - just suffering from natural causes and not even human immorality or injustice - has to be as it is, as much as it is, for as many as it is, if it is necessary. And it may be for all we know.

After he akses u that question he shows u a schematic for reality and when u see how it works you're like 'holy shit now i see why evil and natural disaster and all that stuff had to be included. Whoa that's farout. U drew that up yourself?'

The point is, unless we know how exactly things would work if that god existed, we can't say the things that work which we do understand and call evil and suffering, aren't necessary. They may be necessary components for the soft machine

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir. Also, there can be some who worship God out of fear who don't really believe in a God to begin with. Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it. Take a look at the world around you, I see a world in trouble and we are the ones who are responsible for making it better. If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction. I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship. Love, obey, and believe or there will be pain and suffering. To me, this taints the relationship with God.

A second motivator is desire, it seems to me one of the reasons people worship and obey God is because they are expecting something in return, such as blessings. miracles, and an afterlife. Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them? Like fear based faith, desire can also taint a relationship with God. Personally, I find the void more pleasant and desirable over an after life anyways.

I've had similar feelings concerning God. Ultimately, I remain agnostic to the existence or not of a God. I wish I could believe in God but something doesn't connect with me. I just feel alienated and distant from God instead. Or maybe there's no God at all. I don't know. I've tried going to church and stuff like that. But I'm a fish out of water there.

Can anyone tell me who came up with the following statement?

"Can God create something so heavy they can't lift it and still be omnipotent?"

I like this statement because either way God ends up non-omnipotent. I hope I got it right.

define heavy...

can god lift your soul?

-Imp

Funny things about words, they are in a loop of almost infinite definition. We use words to define other words. For example, define a word, then define all the words that you used to define that word, then define all the words that you used to define those words and so on.

Thank u, Jacques Derrida.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:17 pm

Osric wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:45 pm One of the major motivators for a person to worship God I think is fear, mainly fear of pain and suffering that God can inflict on us should we not accept him as our lord and savoir. Also, there can be some who worship God out of fear who don't really believe in a God to begin with. Some claim that God is all love, but I'm not seeing it or experiencing it. Take a look at the world around you, I see a world in trouble and we are the ones who are responsible for making it better. If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction. I compare a relationship with God to an abusive relationship. Love, obey, and believe or there will be pain and suffering. To me, this taints the relationship with God.

A second motivator is desire, it seems to me one of the reasons people worship and obey God is because they are expecting something in return, such as blessings. miracles, and an afterlife. Would people love God if God wasn't giving stuff to them? Like fear based faith, desire can also taint a relationship with God. Personally, I find the void more pleasant and desirable over an after life anyways.

I've had similar feelings concerning God. Ultimately, I remain agnostic to the existence or not of a God. I wish I could believe in God but something doesn't connect with me. I just feel alienated and distant from God instead. Or maybe there's no God at all. I don't know. I've tried going to church and stuff like that. But I'm a fish out of water there.

'Going to' a church will only be more misleading and cause you more confusion.

I suggest just 'staying there', in 'that body and church, instead of 'going to any other church's. As all of 'the answers' that you are searching and looking for, 'here', are all 'within you', anyway.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:24 pm "If anything, I see an evil and malicious God who allows the beings of this existence to suffer through his inaction."

I've thought about this problem a great deal and I'll show u what I've come up with.

Imagine (just do it man i know it's ridiculous) being in the company of god after u die. U stand before him as he informs u of the eternal happiness to come and you're delighted.

See, here is another prime example of how these people, back then, when this was being written, still, really believed that the concepts of 'heaven and hell's were about them personally, and individually.

Although this is not what you said and wrote here "promethean75", it is true, right?

If no, then what did you actually mean and/or was referring to, exactly?

Also, when you uncover and find, or are informed of, what the words 'eternal happiness' are in relation and regards to, exactly, then you will most certainly be "delighted". But, also be "extremely disappointed" as you believe that you will miss out. But, then you will be "extremely delighted", again, as well as, literally, 'elated' when and if you remain open and come-to-know more and further knowledge here.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:24 pm Then he akses u 'now that u see what you've earned through your faith and commitment, do u think what u went through to get all this, was worth it?'

U could answer in two ways. One way is to answer that 'yes' obviously it was worth it... all that shit is over with, history, and now I'm in eternal bliss. You're damn right it was worth it, G.

The other way u could answer would be to return with a question that challenges god's omnipotence; even tho it was worth it, wouldn't it have been even better if i could have lived a wonderful life and also eternal bliss afterward?

And, if you were to ask such a question as this, while remaining Truly open for the answer and reply, then you will learn, and understand, far more here about how and why things had 'played out', the way they did, hitherto when 'you', finally, became Truly Aware of how to discover the actual Truth of things, literally, all by "yourself".

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:24 pm Unless the suffering was necessary in some weird way (which shouldn't be the case if u can do and create anything), it seems to be gratuitous and without any real purpose.

What 'seems' to you, personally, is obviously not what is necessarily True nor Right, at all.

Also, where did you obtain, and are holding onto, 'the belief' that it would be in some 'weird way'?

Why did you not obtain, and are 'now' holding, 'the belief' that it was because os some Truly logical and rational way, instead.

Also, could 'your belief' here be what has been affecting 'your ability' to have been able to find and uncover what the actual Truths are here, exactly, previously?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:24 pm Now we have to wonder why suffering - just suffering from natural causes and not even human immorality or injustice - has to be as it is, as much as it is, for as many as it is, if it is necessary. And it may be for all we know.

It was necessary. That was; until you human beings evolved enough to learn how to find and uncover all if 'the answers', and thus all if 'the solutions' all by "yourselves".

And, it is only the "weak", and/or you adult human beings, who so-call 'suffer' from non- human immorality or injustices..

Also, all children do not 'suffer' from the non-human reaction process, but they certainly have a 'right', and 'reason', to 'suffer' from you adult human being's inactions, immoralities and injustices, which, again, you all do do. Also, you adult human beings have no actual 'right', nor 'reason', to 'suffer' from your own inactions, immoralities, and injustices, yet it is you who are the biggest 'sufferers', whingers, and complainers here, in this regard.

After he akses u that question he shows u a schematic for reality and when u see how it works you're like 'holy shit now i see why evil and natural disaster and all that stuff had to be included. Whoa that's farout. U drew that up yourself?'

promethean75 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:24 pm The point is, unless we know how exactly things would work if that god existed, we can't say the things that work which we do understand and call evil and suffering, aren't necessary. They may be necessary components for the soft machine

Good point here "promethean75". And, when one is Truly, Honest, Open, and seriously Willing to change, for the better, for others, then that one will certainly learn, comprehend, and understand far more about HOW, exactly, the Universe actually works, and behaves, and why all of the things that do happen actually do happen.

Osric wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 6:15 pm Can anyone tell me who came up with the following statement?

"Can God create something so heavy they can't lift it and still be omnipotent?"

I like this statement because either way God ends up non-omnipotent. I hope I got it right.

Why does an illogical, irrational, or nonsensical question make God, Itself, all of a sudden and supposedly automatically 'non-omnipotent'?

Also, is 'it' a question, or, a statement?