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a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:45 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
that there is much wailing and teeth grinding over the
fact that rights are being included for more and more people.....
in other words, that gays have gained the right to marry and have children
and have other rights that heterosexual couples have... 

but this wasn't always true.... that gays had to ''live in the closet''
for most of the last 500 years... but this expansion of rights has
included other groups... women for example... women were considered
to be property, legally considered to be property until the NY married property
act of 1848 and by 1900, every state had passed laws granting married
women the right to keep their own wages and to own property in their own
name....so, within the last two hundred years has women have the rights,
the same rights men have, to have an independence outside of marriage....

This expansion of rights was part of the legacy of the French Revolution....
but the French Revolution was heavily impacted by the Enlightenment.....
without the Enlightenment, we don't have the French Revolution......
and the subsequent expansion of rights for human beings.......

History can be written in many different ways, and one way is the
expansion of rights within history..... for example, in ancient Egypt,
only one person had rights, and that was the Pharoh...
and the history of civilization can be written as the expansion of
rights from the one, the king or the Pharoh to a few, to many (where
we are today) and to all, everyone regardless of who they are,
everyone has equal rights....the expansion of rights from one to all,
is the history of human beings....

for example, the history of voting in America... in which only
wealthy white men who had property and was a certain age, were allowed to
vote...and the right to vote expanded to those without property, again,
white men of a certain age... and that right to vote expanded,
again and again... first to women, then to blacks and minorities...
the history of America can be said to be the history of the expansion of
rights...... but voting rights aren't the only rights possible, as pointed
out, women were considered to be property until the Civil war and thereafter,
and today, the attempt to limit the rights of gays and transexual people,
is just a continuation of the expansion of rights that has been the
case for generations....

The history of human beings can be and perhaps should be written
as a case of the expansion of rights from one, to some to most to all.....

and thus the conservative attempt to limit the rights of gays and trans people
flies in the face of history, in which the expansion of rights have
been a paramount part of human history.....

Now one of the questions that Science Fiction has been grappling with,
has been this question of Robots/androids, are they machines or
are they sentient beings... A good deal of the Star Trek series,
the Next Generation has revolved around this very issue with
its Data problem.... is Data covered by human laws or is Data
covered by property rights? Practically every Star Trek series since
the Next Generation has tried to work out this issue.... Does A.I
have the same political rights as I do? The expansion of rights,
continue on into our future.... and it will continue to write
our history as the expansion of rights has written the last
200 years of political, social, legal, economic and philosophical
history....and it will continue to do so......

Kropotkin

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm
by attofishpi
Kropotkin U imbecile of intellect..

IF I cut my penis off and state that I am now a woman..

Do I have the right to join and beat women at weightlifting competitions?

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:14 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm Kropotkin U imbecile of intellect..

IF I cut my penis off and state that I am now a woman..

Do I have the right to join and beat women at weightlifting competitions?
K: you seem to have posted in the wrong thread...

Kropotkin

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:15 pm
by henry quirk
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm
Yes. According to PK if a man has his tallywhacker removed (and replaced with an open wound, i.e. a faux-gina), and has sweater muffins produced thru hormone injections & surgery, then this man is a woman and is entitled to compete as a woman.

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:18 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:15 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm
Yes. According to PK if a man has his tallywhacker removed (and replaced with an open wound, i.e. a faux-gina), and has sweater muffins produced thru hormone injections & surgery, then this man is a woman and is entitled to compete as a woman.
K: you also seem to have posted in the wrong thread.... the hate threads
around here are easy enough to find, if one only looks.....

Kropotkin

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:18 pm
by Flannel Jesus
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm Kropotkin U imbecile of intellect..

IF I cut my penis off and state that I am now a woman..

Do I have the right to join and beat women at weightlifting competitions?
If you have the balls to cut your own penis off, bro I'm not getting in the way of you doing anything.

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:21 pm
by attofishpi
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:14 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm Kropotkin U imbecile of intellect..

IF I cut my penis off and state that I am now a woman..

Do I have the right to join and beat women at weightlifting competitions?
K: you seem to have posted in the wrong thread...

Kropotkin
I am certain U R an idiot within any thread you unfortunately have the apparent ability to type letters of the alphabet within..

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:24 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:21 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:14 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:57 pm Kropotkin U imbecile of intellect..

IF I cut my penis off and state that I am now a woman..

Do I have the right to join and beat women at weightlifting competitions?
K: you seem to have posted in the wrong thread...

Kropotkin
I am certain U R an idiot within any thread you unfortunately have the apparent ability to type letters of the alphabet within..
K: My thread was about the expansion of rights within a historical context...
do you have anything to say about that?

Kropotkin

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:34 pm
by attofishpi
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:21 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:14 pm

K: you seem to have posted in the wrong thread...

Kropotkin
I am certain U R an idiot within any thread you unfortunately have the apparent ability to type letters of the alphabet within..
K: My thread was about the expansion of rights within a historical context...
do you have anything to say about that?

Kropotkin
NO.

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:13 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:34 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:21 pm

I am certain U R an idiot within any thread you unfortunately have the apparent ability to type letters of the alphabet within..
K: My thread was about the expansion of rights within a historical context...
do you have anything to say about that?

Kropotkin
NO.
K: Not enough hate and bigotry in this thread, for you to post in?
Fair enough...there are other threads to declare to the world, you hate
others different than yourself....

Kropotkin

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:27 pm
by attofishpi
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:34 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:24 pm

K: My thread was about the expansion of rights within a historical context...
do you have anything to say about that?

Kropotkin
NO.
K: Not enough hate and bigotry in this thread, for you to post in?
Fair enough...there are other threads to declare to the world, you hate
others different than yourself....

Kropotkin
Kroptkin, just because I think you are extemely stupid does not mean I hate U.

In fact, I feel extreme sorrow for stupid people like you,

I feel that intelligent people like me should look after stupid people like U.

..so wot..can we fly a rainbow flag obove us now>>>>? it'd be soooo pretty...??

Re: a philosophical take

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:37 am
by Peter Kropotkin
given the original thread and the reality that history
presents us, we can see that the concepts of the expansion of
rights, is not linear... it doesn't go from point A to point B in
a straight line.... it takes some steps forward and at times,
some steps backwards... the fact is that the Greeks and Romans
had a greater advancement of rights, than the later times,
the 1000-year mediaeval times... and rights started to come back
into ''fashion'' with the Rennaissance.....in which the ''rebirth'' of
rights came from the readings of the ancient Romans and Greeks....

The advancements of rights, legally, socially, politically, philosophically,
culturally are rights that advance at different rates at different times
within the politically or socially or legally systems......

For example, the freedom to pray to whatever god was basic in the Roman
and Greek society..... and it wasn't a right within the Medieval times and
was rather provisional after much warfare by 1650 or 1700....
Your choices at that point was, either Catholic or Protestant..
Atheism was not a choice... until the 19 century.... I believe,
but without proof, that in America, the rise of Atheism came
after the Civil War and was because of the Civil War.....

Wars have the tendency to loosen the bonds of society
due to their corrosive effect on the society....
We especially see this after the First World War....

The poem "The Second Coming'' by W. B. Yeats... could not
have been written before the First World War....

Turning and turning in the
widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the
falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre
cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the
world,
the blood-dimmed tide is loosed,
and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is
drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while
the worst
are full of passionate intensity.

It was Yeats belief that the Christian era, was coming to
an end.... and we can see an interesting commentary that
is quite present here on this website... that the worst are full of passionate
intensity..... and how is that the ''worse?'' Because they can only
see the intensity of their views, and not whether their views
have any validity...or are anywhere close to being right...
correctness is less important than having the intensity of a view....

the expansion of rights can only come from an understanding
of the equality of human beings.... that my rights and the rights
of others must be equal.... and what if, what if those rights
are unequal, that one group has rights that another group lacks,
that is a question of justice.... for being just, justice is
a question of equality.... justice is being equal before the law
or justice is being equal politically or justice is being equal socially....
and one particular point of view that is front and center today,
justice is being equal economically..... that if one person has
vast wealth... or a group of people have vast wealth and others
have so little that they are homeless or lack basic necessities,
that is being unequal, unjust.... we see that 500 people
hold the same amount of wealth as half the people on Earth...
How can we consider that to be equal? to be Just?

We have over the last two centuries, tried to equalize equality,
to have justice, politically, legally, and now the battle will be
fought in terms of equality, of justice, economically....

Which is exactly the conflict between Marxism and Capitalism....
Note, that I did not say communism, I said Marxism... for that is
one of the essential points of Marx.... a recognition of the
inequality of wealth in the modern world.... a point which is
not present in Lenin or Stalin.... for them, the theoretical
reasons for overthrowing the capitalistic system is less important
than the actual overthrowing the capitalistic system...

the current system must be overthrown.. oh, and by the way, this
is why the current system must be overthrown.... Whereas Marx was
the system is corrupt and needs to be overthrown... there is a difference
in the why and the why was more important to Marx than it was to Lenin
or Stalin... they took the overthrow of the system as a primary assumption
and the why was not that important.... for Marx, the emphasis on rights
was more about the individual whereas for the later leaders of communism,
the emphasis of rights was to the state, not to the individuals....
and that is a major difference....Marx began with the individual
and Lenin/Stalin begin with the state in terms of both power and
rights....

and where will the march for rights take us now?

As we come into an increased understanding that we can only
be free and with rights, if and only if, everyone is free and with rights....
the increase in rights will come with the increase of the idea
of justice, which is equality..... the greater equality, the greater the justice
and the greater the rights, individuals have.....

Kropotkin