Philosophy Now Forum

Are we human beings just "meat machines" as one notable philosopher (forgotten which one) once put it? And if we are machines that are made of meat and we are conscious beings, then are other machines that are made of things other than meat also possibly "conscious beings"? And what is "consciousness"? How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines"...

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgemental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:43 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines"...

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgmental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

Some computers can do amazing things also. I wonder if computers do or can have conscious experience like we do.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines" as one notable philosopher (forgotten which one) once put it?

Once again, as 'you' have been 'informed', already, 'you', 'human beings', are made up of a visible human body, AND, invisible thoughts and emotions.

So, and again, you, human beings, NOT just 'meat machines'.

Can you comprehend and understand this irrefutable Fact "gary childress"? Or, are you going to, once again, 'wonder' who and what 'you', human beings, are, exactly?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm And if we are machines that are made of meat and we are conscious beings, then are other machines that are made of things other than meat also possibly "conscious beings"?

Considering the actual size and duration of the Universe, Itself, just about any thing at all is 'possible'.

So, it is possible that so-called 'non meat conscious beings' exist, somewhere in the infinite, endless, and eternal that the Universe, actually, is.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm And what is "consciousness"?

Being 'conscious' just means, more or less, being 'aware'.

So, if there is an 'awareness' of things, then there is 'consciousness', itself, existing.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

By just using the definition I just provided you with.

If something is 'aware', then it is 'conscious'.

Obviously, all animals are 'aware' in one way or another, and at varies degrees. As for everything else, then, again, through a Truly Honest and Open discussion, then the answer/s will be-come-known, and be revealed.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:34 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

By just using the definition I just provided you with.

If something is 'aware', then it is 'conscious'.

Obviously, all animals are 'aware' in one way or another, and at varies degrees. As for everything else, then, again, through a Truly Honest and Open discussion, then the answer/s will be-come-known, and be revealed.

Is it possible that computers (albeit perhaps extremely sophisticated ones) are "aware"? How much like computers are we human beings and/or how much like human beings are computers?

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:43 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines"...

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgemental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

MAYBE by 'just', "garry childress" was only 'just' meaning that you human beings are made out of 'meat' and nothing else, only?

And, the word 'just' was not in relation to being 'judgmental' in any way, shape, nor form, at all, and especially not in relation to what you 'meat machines' could or could not do, at all?

This is 'just' some thing to think about and consider here.

But, and once again, if you asked "garry childress" was being 'so judgmental', or not at all, before you 'found "your" 'self' getting increasingly annoyed by just the word 'just', then you could have, actually, 'found out' what the actual Truth is here, before you become 'so judgmental' "your" 'self' and 'judged' "garry childress" for using the 'just' word in 'just one way', only.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:43 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines"...

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgmental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

Some computers can do amazing things also. I wonder if computers do or can have conscious experience like we do.

It is impossible for computers to have the 'amazing' abilities that you human beings have. Like, for example, 'conscious experiences', like you do.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:40 pm

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:34 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

By just using the definition I just provided you with.

If something is 'aware', then it is 'conscious'.

Obviously, all animals are 'aware' in one way or another, and at varies degrees. As for everything else, then, again, through a Truly Honest and Open discussion, then the answer/s will be-come-known, and be revealed.

Is it possible that computers (albeit perhaps extremely sophisticated ones) are "aware"?

It is 'possible'.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm How much like computers are we human beings and/or how much like human beings are computers?

The human brain works, exactly, like a computer does. That is; input in/input out.

A computer can only 'put out' what has been 'fed into' it. Which is, exactly, how the human brain works. The human brain can only 'put out' what has been 'fed into' it.

The reason though human beings have been continually evolving with the ability to keep learning more and more new/er things is because of the Mind, Itself. See, the Mind is always Truly OPEN, and it is by having the ability to be Truly OPEN to learning, understanding, and reasoning any and every thing, which is just what the 'Intelligence' word is referring to, exactly, combined with the ability of the human being to grasp, store, and recall any of the 'information/knowledge 'fed into' it, through any or all of the five senses, the human being is the only animal that surpasses all other animals and all other things, with and from these abilities.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:43 pm

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgmental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

Some computers can do amazing things also. I wonder if computers do or can have conscious experience like we do.

It is impossible for computers to have the 'amazing' abilities that you human beings have. Like, for example, 'conscious experiences', like you do.

You say, "It's impossible for computers to have the 'amazing' abilities that we have" and you refer to "conscious experience" as an example of one of our abilities. Is it correct to say, then, that it is impossible for computers to have conscious experience? And if it is correct to say that, then why is it "impossible"? What limitations do computers have to becoming "conscious" that we humans don't possess? Is it because of the material that computers are made out of? Or is it because of some other reason?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines" as one notable philosopher (forgotten which one) once put it? And if we are machines that are made of meat and we are conscious beings, then are other machines that are made of things other than meat also possibly "conscious beings"? And what is "consciousness"? How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

Meat machine -
meat is the flesh of a mammal and generally no longer present in the whole organism and no longer alive, meant for eating. So, it certainly comes nowhere near to describing us and not everything in us could be meat and certainly isn't while we're walking around.
machine - machines are made for purposes by, so far in our knowledge, humans. No machine is as complicated as any of us. So, it's kind off.

I mean, that's me looking at it literally. In a poem, while lamenting, as an outburst... sure, maybe. But as a definition it's terrible and one, if not intended to deflate, minimize, shame the reader, would be a insult to do that.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines" as one notable philosopher (forgotten which one) once put it? And if we are machines that are made of meat and we are conscious beings, then are other machines that are made of things other than meat also possibly "conscious beings"? And what is "consciousness"? How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

Meat machine -
meat is the flesh of a mammal and generally no longer present in the whole organism and no longer alive, meant for eating. So, it certainly comes nowhere near to describing us and not everything in us could be meat and certainly isn't while we're walking around.
machine - machines are made for purposes by, so far in our knowledge, humans. No machine is as complicated as any of us. So, it's kind off.

I mean, that's me looking at it literally. In a poem, while lamenting, as an outburst... sure, maybe. But as a definition it's terrible and one, if not intended to deflate, minimize, shame the reader, would be a insult to do that.

I concur that it does seem demeaning to us to call us "meat machines". I was listening to a lecture on the topic of philosophy of mind years ago and in the lecture, the professor cited some other philosopher who used the term "meat machines" to describe human beings.

When I studied Philosophy of Mind in a college classroom, I was fascinated by the question of what is consciousness or why do we (or "I" to be solipsistic for a moment) have conscious experience but presumably a computer made of plastic and silicone, etc. does not? Or is it possible to create a conscious machine using plastic and silicone, etc.? And if it were, how would we ever be able to discern if the machine was indeed conscious or not? I mean, would we ask it if it's conscious? And if we did and it said, "yes" does that mean we 'programmed' it to say 'yes' or did it say 'yes' because it was conscious?

I feel like the field of AI is propelling us into a future that is beyond anything we've ever yet experienced and that it will raise ethical concerns that we only imagined before their invention.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:40 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:43 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines"...

I'm finding myself getting increasingly annoyed by this word "just". It's so judgemental.

What if we ARE meat machines - not "just" meat machines, we leave the word "just" out - maybe we're meat machines - and MAYBE meat machines can be, and do, amazing things.

MAYBE by 'just', "garry childress" was only 'just' meaning that you human beings are made out of 'meat' and nothing else, only?

And, the word 'just' was not in relation to being 'judgmental' in any way, shape, nor form, at all, and especially not in relation to what you 'meat machines' could or could not do, at all?

This is 'just' some thing to think about and consider here.

But, and once again, if you asked "garry childress" was being 'so judgmental', or not at all, before you 'found "your" 'self' getting increasingly annoyed by just the word 'just', then you could have, actually, 'found out' what the actual Truth is here, before you become 'so judgmental' "your" 'self' and 'judged' "garry childress" for using the 'just' word in 'just one way', only.

Hilarious.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm Some computers can do amazing things also. I wonder if computers do or can have conscious experience like we do.

It is impossible for computers to have the 'amazing' abilities that you human beings have. Like, for example, 'conscious experiences', like you do.

Gary C: Is it possible that computers (albeit perhaps extremely sophisticated ones) are "aware"?

It is 'possible'.

Could you explain what you mean in your two responses above?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 12:32 pm Are we human beings just "meat machines" as one notable philosopher (forgotten which one) once put it?

Yes

And if we are machines that are made of meat and we are conscious beings, then are other machines that are made of things other than meat also possibly "conscious beings"?

Yes

And what is "consciousness"?

Which consciousness? Here, the relevant consciousness is probably the self-awareness.
A few species on Earth seem to be self-aware. Say humans, some great apes, dolphins, whales, elephants, maybe a handful others. And the really interesting case, corvids, I think the study or corvids has the best chance of unlocking the secret of self-awareness.

How can we know if something is "conscious" or not?

No surefire way. Self-aware things tend to umm behave somewehat like umm entities? Recognize themselves in mirrors and act accordingly?

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:28 pm A few species on Earth seem to be self-aware. Say humans, some great apes, dolphins, whales, elephants, maybe a handful others. And the really interesting case, corvids, I think the study or corvids has the best chance of unlocking the secret of self-awareness.

What about cephalopods? Do they appear to possess self-awareness? I know some of them can do some remarkable things including unscrew the lid of a jar they are trapped in.