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Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm
by mmarco
I am a physicist and I will explain why our scientific knowledge refutes the idea that consciousness is generated by the brain and that the origin of our mental experiences is physical/biological .
My argument proves that the fragmentary structure of brain processes implies that brain processes are not a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies the existence in us of an indivisible unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit (in my youtube channel you can find a video with more detailed explanations). I also argue that all emergent properties are subjective cognitive contructs that depend on the level of abstraction one chooses to analyze the system and are used to approximately describe underlying physical processes; these descriptions refer only to mind-dependent entities, and therefore consciousness, being implied by these cognitive contructs, cannot itself be an emergent property.

Preliminary considerations: the concept of set refers to something that has an intrinsically conceptual and subjective nature and implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set; what exists objectively are only the single elements. In fact, when we define a set, it is like drawing an imaginary line that separates some elements from all the other elements; obviously this imaginary line does not exist physically, independently of our mind, and therefore any set is just an abstract and subjective cognitive construct and not a physical entity and so are all its properties. Similar considerations can be made for a sequence of elementary processes; sequence is a subjective and abstract concept.

Mental experience is a precondition for the existence of subjectivity/arbitrariness and cognitive constructs, therefore mental experience cannot itself be a cognitive construct; obviously we can conceive the concept of consciousness, but the concept of consciousness is not actual consciousness.
(With the word consciousness I do not refer to self-awareness, but to the property of being conscious= having a mental experiences such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, memories and even dreams).

From the above considerations it follows that only indivisible elements may exist objectively and independently of consciousness, and consequently the only logically coherent and significant statement is that consciousness exists as a property of an indivisible element. Furthermore, this indivisible entity must interact globally with brain processes because we know that there is a correlation between brain processes and consciousness. This indivisible entity is not physical, since according to the laws of physics, there is no physical entity with such properties; therefore this indivisible entity can be identified with what is traditionally called soul or spirit. The soul is the missing element that interprets globally the distinct elementary physical processes occurring at separate points in the brain as a unified mental experience.

Some clarifications.

The brain doesn't objectively and physically exist as a mind-independent entity since we create the concept of the brain by separating an arbitrarily chosen group of quantum particles from everything else. This separation is not done on the basis of the laws of physics, but using addictional subjective criteria, independent of the laws of physics; actually there is a continuous exchange of molecules with the blood and when and how such molecules start and stop being part of the brain is decided arbitrarily. An example may clarify this point: the concept of nation. Nation is not a physical entity and does not refer to a mind-independent entity because it is just a set of arbitrarily chosen people. The same goes for the brain. Brain processes consist of many parallel sequences of ordinary elementary physical processes occurring at separate points. There is no direct connection between the separate points in the brain and such connections are just a subjective abstractions used to approximately describe sequences of many distinct physical processes. Indeed, considering consciousness as a property of an entire sequence of elementary processes implies the arbitrary definition of the entire sequence; the entire sequence as a whole (and therefore every function/property/capacity attributed to the brain) is a subjective abstraction that does not refer to any mind-independendent reality.

Physicalism/naturalism is based on the belief that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. However, an emergent property is defined as a property that is possessed by a set of elements that its individual components do not possess; my arguments prove that this definition implies that emergent properties are only subjective cognitive constructs and therefore, consciousness cannot be an emergent property.
Actually, all the alleged emergent properties are just simplified and approximate descriptions or subjective/arbitrary classifications of underlying physical processes or properties, which are described directly by the fundamental laws of physics alone, without involving any emergent properties (arbitrariness/subjectivity is involved when more than one option is possible; in this case, more than one possible description). An approximate description is only an abstract idea, and no actual entity exists per se corresponding to that approximate description, simply because an actual entity is exactly what it is and not an approximation of itself. What physically exists are the underlying physical processes. Emergence is nothing more than a cognitive construct that is applied to physical phenomena, and cognition itself can only come from a mind; thus emergence can never explain mental experience as, by itself, it implies mental experience.

My approach is scientific and is based on our scientific knowledge of the physical processes that occur in the brain; my arguments prove that the very foundations of our scientific knowledge excludes the possibility that the physical processes that occur in the brain could be a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness.

Marco Biagini

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:04 pm
by Atla
mmarco wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm brain processes are not a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies the existence in us of an indivisible unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit
Nope. Brain processes not being a sufficient condition for the existence of [phenomenal, Hard problem] consciousness implies that the physical world is the same thing as consciousness.

Your unphysical element idea only comes up if we add some unnecessary dualistic assumption.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm
by FlashDangerpants
You have an interesting and perhaps novel argument on the go here. It looks like it needs a bit of work though. A couple of the questionable parts that spring out at first glance include...

Mental experience is a precondition for the existence of subjectivity/arbitrariness and cognitive constructs - Why? Surely it can be composed of those things rather than being some unexperienced substrate upon which they somehow rest.

the concept of set refers to something that has an intrinsically conceptual and subjective nature and implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set. I guess trivially this is so, and known to be so, the set of the Eiffel Tower and my nose being an example. But is the mereological nihilism you derive from this information quite so compelling as you hope? I say so what? Sets only exist as notional entities, but nobody expected them to exist more than that. Complexes exist as collections of simples.

Either way, I feel that moving to your initial conclusion that: the only logically coherent and significant statement is that consciousness exists as a property of an indivisible element doesn't make much sense to me. It just seems like overreach tbh.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:39 am
by Veritas Aequitas
mmarco wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm I am a physicist and I will explain why our scientific knowledge refutes the idea that consciousness is generated by the brain and that the origin of our mental experiences is physical/biological .
............
My approach is scientific and is based on our scientific knowledge of the physical processes that occur in the brain; my arguments prove that the very foundations of our scientific knowledge excludes the possibility that the physical processes that occur in the brain could be a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness.
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265
1. Human-based Framework and System sense of reality - realistic
2. Philosophical Realism mind-independent sense of reality- illusory

Similarly,
There are Two Senses of Scientific Reality;
1. Human-based Scientific AntiRealism
2. Scientific Realism based on philosophical realism.

I believe your belief is grounded on philosophical and scientific realism, i.e. reality exist as absolutely independent of the human conditions. Einstein is one example of a philosophical realist with science.

Whatever is the scientific truth, it is a best a polished conjecture [hypothesis].
I believe the subject of consciousness is not within the ambit of Physics but rather should be dealt within philosophy-proper which rely all sources of knowledge supported with critical thinking.

Consciousness is an emergent property from a complex combination of activities.
From the human-based framework and system, consciousness "is" that which can be supported as far as possible by empirical evidences and critical thinking.

But philosophical realists [scientific realism] desperate and yearn to speculate there is 'something' beyond the what is empirically possible as rationalized based on a ideology driven by cognitive dissonances arising from an existential crisis.
This is more of a psychological issue than an epistemological or ontological issue.

As such, the unresolved never-ending issue of consciousness can be resolved psychologically and via philosophy-proper rather than by physics or epistemology, theology and others.

The pyrrhonian skeptic merely suspend judgment on such a never-ending issue to save themselves from the terrible cognitive dissonances.
In ancient philosophy, skepticism was understood as a way of life associated with inner peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism
It is the same with the Buddhist and others who understand 'what is consciousness absolutely] is a psychological problem rather than an epistemological issue.
Kant did the same with recognizing the thing-in-itself or in this case consciousness-in-itself is merely an illusion for those who try to reify as something absolutely real.

Do you see the problem of consciousness as fundamentally a psychological problem?

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am
by mmarco
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm

Mental experience is a precondition for the existence of subjectivity/arbitrariness and cognitive constructs - Why? Surely it can be composed of those things rather than being some unexperienced substrate upon which they somehow rest.
Obviously, it necessary to define the terms we use; with the word "consciousness" I do not refer to self-awareness, but to the property of being conscious= having a mental experience such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, memories and even dreams. The most fundamental empirical piece of information we have is the existence of our mental experiences. Consciousness is what we experience, therefore we know exactly what consciousness is. Consciousness is what we know best because it is the only reality we directly know exactly as it is in itself, the only reality we directly experience because it is experience itself. We have then a direct empirical knowledge of consciousness and consciousness represents the necessary preliminary condition for all other knowledge, consciousness is the foundation of all knowledge.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm the concept of set refers to something that has an intrinsically conceptual and subjective nature and implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set. I guess trivially this is so, and known to be so, the set of the Eiffel Tower and my nose being an example. But is the mereological nihilism you derive from this information quite so compelling as you hope? I say so what? Sets only exist as notional entities, but nobody expected them to exist more than that. Complexes exist as collections of simples.
The point is that complexes are only subjective cognitive constructs and do not exist as mind-independ entities. At a fundamental physical level, there is no brain, or heart, or higher level sets, but only fundamental quantum particles individually interacting with each other; the brain, as well as any other biological organ, is only a subjective mental construct that refers to a group of arbitrarily chosen quantum particles, considered as a whole.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:51 am
by mmarco
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:39 am
I believe your belief is grounded on philosophical and scientific realism, i.e. reality exist as absolutely independent of the human conditions.
No, actually I am a Berkelian idealist because I think that Berkeley's ontology provides the only logically coherent interpretation of quantum mechanics.
The purpose of my arguments is not to prove the existence of a mind-independnet physical reality; I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a mind-independent physical reality and I refer to the reality described by the fundamental laws of physics. My arguments prove that, because of the fragmentary nature of brain processes, physicalism is incompatible with the foundations of our scientific knwoledge.


Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:39 am Consciousness is an emergent property from a complex combination of activities.
My arguments prove that your statement is certainly false.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:53 am
by mmarco
Atla wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:04 pm
mmarco wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm brain processes are not a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies the existence in us of an indivisible unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit
Nope. Brain processes not being a sufficient condition for the existence of [phenomenal, Hard problem] consciousness implies that the physical world is the same thing as consciousness.

Your unphysical element idea only comes up if we add some unnecessary dualistic assumption.
You can't dismiss a rational argument simply because you don't like the conclusion. You have provided no arguments to refute mine.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am
by Age
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm

Mental experience is a precondition for the existence of subjectivity/arbitrariness and cognitive constructs - Why? Surely it can be composed of those things rather than being some unexperienced substrate upon which they somehow rest.
Obviously, it necessary to define the terms we use; with the word "consciousness" I do not refer to self-awareness, but to the property of being conscious= having a mental experience such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, memories and even dreams.
So, does this mean that all, some, or only human, animals have 'consciousness'?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am The most fundamental empirical piece of information we have is the existence of our mental experiences.
Does 'the mental', actually, have experiences? Or, is that the physical body has experiences, from which those experiences are then 'held' or 'stored' in 'the mental'?

And, is the word 'mental' here just more or less referring to 'thought', itself, alone?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am Consciousness is what we experience,
But, who and/or what is the 'we', which is, supposedly, experiencing 'consciousness', itself?

Is it not possible to you that 'consciousness', itself, is just 'being conscious', or 'being aware', themselves. Could 'consciousness' just be a word referring to when 'we' are just 'being conscious' or just 'being aware'?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am therefore we know exactly what consciousness is.
If 'we' do, then why do 'we' argue and disagree here?

If 'we', already, know, exactly, what 'consciousness', itself, is, then why are 'you' telling 'us' what 'consciousness' is, here?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am Consciousness is what we know best because it is the only reality we directly know exactly as it is in itself, the only reality we directly experience because it is experience itself.
Until 'you' told 'me' what 'consciousness' is, exactly, here I was imagining that 'the thinking', within 'this body' was what 'I' knew best. As 'thoughts' are 'a reality' that 'I' directly knew, exactly as they are, in themselves. This 'reality' is what 'I' was directly experiencing, and not because 'thought' is the direct outcome of 'the body's' experiences, but partly because the 'thoughts' within are the only things I can, really, know, for sure.

Obviously, 'the thoughts', themselves, may be wrong or false, but knowing them, directly, cannot be refuted, nor disputed, by anyone else.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am We have then a direct empirical knowledge of consciousness and consciousness represents the necessary preliminary condition for all other knowledge, consciousness is the foundation of all knowledge.
But what is 'knowledge', in relation to what is 'consciousness', exactly
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:23 pm the concept of set refers to something that has an intrinsically conceptual and subjective nature and implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set. I guess trivially this is so, and known to be so, the set of the Eiffel Tower and my nose being an example. But is the mereological nihilism you derive from this information quite so compelling as you hope? I say so what? Sets only exist as notional entities, but nobody expected them to exist more than that. Complexes exist as collections of simples.
The point is that complexes are only subjective cognitive constructs and do not exist as mind-independ entities.
Are you able to tell 'us' what 'the mind' is, exactly?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:41 am At a fundamental physical level, there is no brain, or heart, or higher level sets, but only fundamental quantum particles individually interacting with each other; the brain, as well as any other biological organ, is only a subjective mental construct that refers to a group of arbitrarily chosen quantum particles, considered as a whole.
I would suggest that 'the brain' is not just what one may have a 'subjective mental construct' of but is also just another thing made up of matter, itself.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
by Age
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:39 am
I believe your belief is grounded on philosophical and scientific realism, i.e. reality exist as absolutely independent of the human conditions.
No, actually I am a Berkelian idealist because I think that Berkeley's ontology provides the only logically coherent interpretation of quantum mechanics.
The purpose of my arguments is not to prove the existence of a mind-independnet physical reality; I assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a mind-independent physical reality and I refer to the reality described by the fundamental laws of physics. My arguments prove that, because of the fragmentary nature of brain processes, physicalism is incompatible with the foundations of our scientific knwoledge.
Is there anything to say that 'the foundations of 'our' scientific knowledge' is even irrefutable anyway?

mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:39 am Consciousness is an emergent property from a complex combination of activities.
My arguments prove that your statement is certainly false.
But how could 'your arguments' prove absolutely any thing?

Obviously one has to provide a sound and valid argument in order to 'prove' some thing. And, just as obvious is that 'your arguments' here are not sound and valid, at all.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
by mmarco
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am

Is there anything to say that 'the foundations of 'our' scientific knowledge' is even irrefutable anyway?
I have never said that the foundations of our scientific knowledge are irrefutable; my thesis is simply that physicalism is incompatible with the scientific paradigm.
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
But how could 'your arguments' prove absolutely any thing?

Obviously one has to provide a sound and valid argument in order to 'prove' some thing. And, just as obvious is that 'your arguments' here are not sound and valid, at all.
You have provided no valid arguments to prove that my argument is not sound and valid. Maybe at this point we can only agree to disagree. Best regards.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:09 pm
by mmarco
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am

So, does this mean that all, some, or only human, animals have 'consciousness'?
I have already defined consciousness as any kind of mental experience such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, etc.
Each of us only knows our own personal mental experience and therefore we cannot know whether or not animals have some kind of mental experience.
It is a common opinion that also animals have mental experiences: I am not saying that it is a wrong opinion, but the point is that there is no way to prove that such hypothesis is true because it is not possible to observe consciousness. Animals could be only unconscious biological robots. this hypothesis cannot be excluded, so the existence of consciousness in animals is only a matter of personal beliefs. The fact that an object is responsive to one's surroundings certainly does not mean that such object has a mental experience; also the automatic doors of the supermarket are responsive of their surroundings, since they open when somebody approaches, but that certainly doesn't mean they have mental experiences.The point is that the laws of physics explain how a physical entity can respond to its physical surroundings without any kind of mental experience. We already know how to build machines completely devoid of mental experience that are able to reproduce those behaviors of animals that were once interpreted as demonstrating that they had a mind; this is sufficient to prove that animal behavior cannot be interpreted as proof of the existence of mental experiences in animals.
In fact, according to the laws of physics, all biological organisms should be unconscious biological robots, without any mental experience. I am not saying that animals certainly have no mental experience, just that we cannot rationally rule out this hypothesis.
Since ancient times, man has shown a marked tendency to anthropomorphize nature and the idea that animals have a mind could be the result of this attitude.


Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am Does 'the mental', actually, have experiences? Or, is that the physical body has experiences, from which those experiences are then 'held' or 'stored' in 'the mental'?
As I said, the most fundamental empirical piece of information we have is the existence of our mental experiences and not the existence of the body; we perceive the existence of our body but such perception is a mental experience. So it is not the body who has experinces, but our "I" = our conscious mind.

Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am But, who and/or what is the 'we', which is, supposedly, experiencing 'consciousness', itself?
It is our "I" the "we" who has our mental experiences. The fundamental property of consciousness, as we directly experience it, is subjectivity, i.e. the immediate and intuitive awareness of oneself as an indivisible unit, our "I". Consciousness is inherently subjective because a subject is an intrinsic property of experience, and subjectivity cannot be broken down into simpler elements / pieces.
So, the term “consciousness” always refers to a subject who has a mental experience. For example, when we feel pain, what exists is not pain alone but “we who feel pain”; the “we” is an intrinsic part of the experience of pain. The same is true for any action: for example, there is no “walking” without a “walking subject”. The idea that an experience can exist without an experiencer is simply a nonsensical expression, exactly as the expression “spherical cube”, which is an expression formed by juxtaposing two words whose meaning is mutually exclusive, thus leading to an intrinsic logical contradiction. Language allows us to form meaningless expressions and this can create illusory definitions; these expressions may create the illusion of a meaning, while being devoid of any meaning. The idea that consciousness or a mental experience can be subjectless, in the sense that it does not imply a unitary subjectivity that has a mental experience, is an illusory idea exactly like the idea of ​​a spherical cube or the idea that there may be a “walking” without a “walking subject”.
What distinguishes science from supertitions or philosophical speculations is that science is a combination of logic and empirical evidence, and the most fundamental and direct empirical evidence is that we are the subject of our mental experiences.


Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am If 'we', already, know, exactly, what 'consciousness', itself, is, then why are 'you' telling 'us' what 'consciousness' is, here?
Because it is necessary to define the words we use in order to comunicate .

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:22 pm
by Atla
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 9:53 am
Atla wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:04 pm
mmarco wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm brain processes are not a sufficient condition for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies the existence in us of an indivisible unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit
Nope. Brain processes not being a sufficient condition for the existence of [phenomenal, Hard problem] consciousness implies that the physical world is the same thing as consciousness.

Your unphysical element idea only comes up if we add some unnecessary dualistic assumption.
You can't dismiss a rational argument simply because you don't like the conclusion. You have provided no arguments to refute mine.
What I wrote was arguably the 'rational' conclusion. Your idea requires an additional and arguably unnecessary assumption, brings in an unprovable dualism, so your idea is arguably 'irrational'. It's just another dime a dozen dualism.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:41 pm
by Age
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am

Is there anything to say that 'the foundations of 'our' scientific knowledge' is even irrefutable anyway?
I have never said that the foundations of our scientific knowledge are irrefutable; my thesis is simply that physicalism is incompatible with the scientific paradigm.
you may well not have used the words, 'the foundations of our scientific knowledge are irrefutable', and, I never even said that you did said those words.

What you did say, however, is; 'physicalism is incompatible with the foundations of our scientific knwoledge', and, 'that you could prove this'. Which not just implies but actually means that you believe that 'The foundation of 'our' 'scientific knowledge' is not fully Accurate and Correct.

Therefore, I was just curios as to if there was, and if you had, absolutely any thing that said that 'the foundations of 'our' scientific knowledge' was absolutely True, Right, Accurate, or Correct anyway. Or, in other words, 'Is there absolutely any thing to base the claim that 'the foundations of 'our' scientific knowledge' was even irrefutable, from the outset anyway.

See, you may well claim, and even believe that you can prove, that 'physiciliasm' is incompatible with 'the foundations of our scientific knowledge'', but there was nothing to say that 'the foundations of our scientific knowledge' was even Right to begin with, anyway.

So, claiming that you prove some thing being Wrong or Inaccurate, which may well never of been Right and Accurate to even begin with is, well to me anyway, not some thing really worthy of claiming.

Also, before you go claiming that you can prove that some thing is incompatible with 'the foundation of human beings scientific knowledge' I suggest you put forward what 'the foundation of human beings scientific knowledge' is anyway.

It is very easy to claim that you can prove some thing is not compatible with something else, but if you never explain and tell us what the something else is, exactly, then how could you logically prove that some thing is not compatible with 'it'?

And, just presuming that others will know what the 'something else' is, exactly, is not a very good way to do things here.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:13 am
But how could 'your arguments' prove absolutely any thing?

Obviously one has to provide a sound and valid argument in order to 'prove' some thing. And, just as obvious is that 'your arguments' here are not sound and valid, at all.
You have provided no valid arguments to prove that my argument is not sound and valid.
I asked you about nine questions, in order to get a better understanding and further clarification and elaboration of your arguments here. you did not answer one of them. Therefore, because what you are claiming and are arguing for here is so vague, there is nothing really to argue against.

Also, I made points about what 'consciousness' even is, or at least could be, to you. Did you reply to this to 'prove' any thing?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Maybe at this point we can only agree to disagree. Best regards.
Agree or disagree on 'what', exactly?

Do you think or believe that your arguments here are sound and valid?

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:52 pm
by Flannel Jesus
mmarco wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 9:47 pm
From the above considerations it follows that only indivisible elements may exist objectively and independently of consciousness, and consequently the only logically coherent and significant statement is that consciousness exists as a property of an indivisible element.
I came to the opposite conclusion - that non fundamental objects, emergent things and processes, must be "real" in some sense. That it's not only the fundamental, the indivisible, that really exist.

Re: Refutation of physicalism

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:23 pm
by Age
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:09 pm
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am

So, does this mean that all, some, or only human, animals have 'consciousness'?
I have already defined consciousness as any kind of mental experience such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, etc.
So, because every physical living creature/thing/body 'senses' things, then this means that, to you, that within or all of every physical living thing/creature/body there lays 'consciousness', itself, correct?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Each of us only knows our own personal mental experience and therefore we cannot know whether or not animals have some kind of mental experience.
Why do you say here 'animal' as though humans are not animals?

Also, going by your logic here, you do not know if any other human animal has some kind of mental experience. Or, if you want to claim you do, then how do you know, exactly?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am It is a common opinion that also animals have mental experiences: I am not saying that it is a wrong opinion, but the point is that there is no way to prove that such hypothesis is true because it is not possible to observe consciousness.
1. Actually, observing 'consciousness', itself, is a very easy and simple 'thing' to watch and observe 'play out'. Once you also learn and know what 'consciousness', itself, really is. But anyway.

2. If, as you have defined here, that 'consciousness' is; any kind of mental experience such as sensations, emotions, thoughts, et cetera, then, obviously, observing what physical things/creatures/bodies have 'sensations' is a very, very easy and simple process to watch, and observe. For example, one just has to touch a dog or a cat to 'see' if 'it' has 'sensations'. Or, just put a thorn in a lions paw, for example, and see if 'it' has a 'sensation'. Or, just watch some kind of flowers and see if 'it' 'senses' where the sun is, for example, by observe it and seeing if it can move following the sun. There are countless other examples of just how easy and simple it is to 'observe' what physical creatures, things, or bodies can 'sense' or do have 'sensations'.

As for rocks and other harder physical creatures, things, or bodies it might be a bit harder to 'see' if they actually have 'sensations', but it is still very easy and simple to 'observe' say for example the drying out and changing of those things and bodies from the rays of the sun, or the weathering and eroding of those bodies from water and/or wind. If one wants to call this 'sensations' or not is another matter though.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Animals could be only unconscious biological robots.
Do you also say and claim that humans could be only unconscious biological robots, as well? Or, do you just keep forgetting that humans are also animals, here?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am this hypothesis cannot be excluded, so the existence of consciousness in animals is only a matter of personal beliefs.
But, this is not only a matter of personal beliefs when one looks into this deeper, and fully.

Also, I will suggest that you keep all of your own 'personal beliefs' out of this completely. Otherwise you are going to end up 'stuck', and closed, here.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am The fact that an object is responsive to one's surroundings certainly does not mean that such object has a mental experience;
But, it was you who defined the word 'conscientiousness' here as; Any kind of 'mental experience'. Which you further elaborated on includes 'sensations'.

And, does not 'responding to one's surrounding' imply, to you, that 'that one' has 'sensations'?

If no, then how and why are they 'responding', if they are not having any 'sensations' at all?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am also the automatic doors of the supermarket are responsive of their surroundings, since they open when somebody approaches, but that certainly doesn't mean they have mental experiences.
So, the 'automatic doors', well to you anyway, are not 'sensing' when some thing is close by, right? The doors just open randomly, to you, correct?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am The point is that the laws of physics explain how a physical entity can respond to its physical surroundings without any kind of mental experience.
I am not sure one needs to have any so-called 'law of physics' to watch and observe this undeniable occurrence.

Obviously, matter 'responds' when it interacts with itself. Is this not just plainly obvious, well to every poster here in this forum?

Also, not just every physical thing 'can' respond to other physical things, but they all 'do', when they interact. After all this is, exactly, how all physical things are created, and evolve. The interaction of matter with itself is what causes and creates, the eternal, Creation, Itself. HERE-NOW also I will add.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am We already know how to build machines completely devoid of mental experience that are able to reproduce those behaviors of animals that were once interpreted as demonstrating that they had a mind;
But, there is no thing that has 'a mind'.

Also, do those 'machines' reproduce 'those behaviors of animals that were once interpreted as demonstrating that they had the misnomer 'a mind', Accurately, or perfectly, of in just some limited way.

And, why do you say and claim here that animals were once interpreted as demonstrating that they had 'a mind'. Is it now thought or believed that animals do not have 'minds'?

If yes, then by who, exactly?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am this is sufficient to prove that animal behavior cannot be interpreted as proof of the existence of mental experiences in animals.
So, to you, because a machine, in the days when this is being written, can be created to, what I would find very, very unlikely, and if not impossible, to behave, exactly, like animals actually do, then this 'proves', sufficiently, again to you, that 'animal behavior' cannot be interpreted as the proof of the existence of 'mental experiences', that is; thoughts, emotions, and sensations, right?

If yes, then what 'we' have here is another prime example of why it is far, far better for you human beings to not 'look at' things from an already 'believed' perspective of things. 'Confirmation bias' just ends up overtaking and controlling things from then on.

This one here is completely blind to just how hypocritical it is and to just how much it is contradicting "its" own 'self' here.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am In fact, according to the laws of physics, all biological organisms should be unconscious biological robots, without any mental experience.
Again, I will ask, in another way, Are you under some sort of delusion that 'the foundation of your human being scientific knowledge' was based on actual rationality and/or any thing actually irrefutable, anyway?

Until this is sorted out, and 'known', for sure, then just saying, 'according to the laws of physics', does not really mean nor say that much at all, anyway.

If according to the 'laws of physics', supposedly, human bodies are without 'any mental experience, or activity', which I highly doubt is what is written and claimed under the 'laws of physics', but anyway, if this obviously False claim is what is 'according to the laws of physics', then 'your' 'laws of physics' were just Wrong and/or Inaccurate from the outset.

Are you able to provide link to the 'laws of physics' where there is a written claim that 'according to the laws of physics' 'all biological organisms 'should' be 'unconscious biological robots', without any 'mental experience', that is; without any thought, emotion, nor sensation?

If you are not able to provide this, then why do you say and claim this?

Also, I did not, previously, know that the 'laws of physics' works on or with 'shoulds'.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am I am not saying that animals certainly have no mental experience, just that we cannot rationally rule out this hypothesis.
So, to you anyway, 'we', animals, cannot, rationally, work out and discover if 'we', animals, certainly have 'mental experiences', that is; thoughts, emotions, or sensations, or not, right?

Also, I have already provided some examples of how it is very simple and very easy to test, watch, observe, and know, if non human animals can have 'sensations', or 'mental experiences', or not. Just in case you missed it above here.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Since ancient times,
When were 'ancient times', to you, exactly?

And, are you aware that your thoughts and beliefs here, in the days when this is being written, are in 'ancient times', to others?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am man has shown a marked tendency to anthropomorphize nature and the idea that animals have a mind could be the result of this attitude.
Well since 'man', 'woman', nor 'child' have 'a mind' as well, claiming that you human beings 'anthropomorphize other animals to have 'a mind' is just False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

Obviously, you human beings anthropomorphize other animals to have human beings qualities, but having 'a mind' is certainly not some thing that you human beings have.

mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am Does 'the mental', actually, have experiences? Or, is that the physical body has experiences, from which those experiences are then 'held' or 'stored' in 'the mental'?
As I said, the most fundamental empirical piece of information we have is the existence of our mental experiences and not the existence of the body; we perceive the existence of our body but such perception is a mental experience.
Considering the Fact that 'perception' and 'perceiving' exist, obviously, in the 'mental', then, just as obvious is the Fact that 'perception' is what you, Wrongly call, a 'mental experience'.

Also, you appear to have missed the actual question that I posed, and asked you above here.

I do not care what you previously said, nor stated, nor claimed. I just asked you a very simple question, for clarification. Which was:

To you,
Does 'the mental', actually, have 'experiences'?

Or, does the physical body have 'experiences', alone?

Or, do they both have 'experiences'?

If, and when, you clarify and elaborate, then 'we' can move on and have 'a discussion'. Until then, you will just do what the other posters' do here and that is, essentially, just express what you already believe or presume is true and right, and just keep trying to fight for 'that position' only.

Which, obviously, if it was, actually, True. Right, Accurate, and/or Correct anyway, then you would not have to keep trying to 'fight for it'.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am So it is not the body who has experinces, but our "I" = our conscious mind.
Wow, this is one huge leap.

So, who and/or what is this 'I', which, supposedly, there are many of, and which 'they' have a, reported, 'conscious mind'?

Also, how can 'I' equal 'our any thing' anyway?

In other words how could one, logically, be what it owns or possesses?

The word 'our' means or refers to what is 'owned' or 'possessed' and, obviously, not to what the 'thing' is that 'owns' or 'possesses' some thing.

Furthermore who and/or what is the 'thing' that 'owns' or possesses' 'our' 'I', exactly?

Are you aware that there is a much, much simpler and easier way to express what 'it' is, exactly, which you are trying to here?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am But, who and/or what is the 'we', which is, supposedly, experiencing 'consciousness', itself?
It is our "I" the "we" who has our mental experiences.
'you' are not answering the actual question being posed, and asked, here.

'you' appear to not have worked this out fully, yet.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am The fundamental property of consciousness, as we directly experience it, is subjectivity, i.e. the immediate and intuitive awareness of oneself as an indivisible unit, our "I".
Are 'you' aware that the word 'our' means or refers to more than one', which, obviously, is divisible?

Who and/or what are the 'things' that the word 'our' is in reference to, exactly?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Consciousness is inherently subjective because a subject is an intrinsic property of experience, and subjectivity cannot be broken down into simpler elements / pieces.
What 'you' are trying to argue or fight for here is absolutely True, Right, Accurate, and Correct. However, you are just going about it in a Truly cumbersome and confusing way. But, this is just what everyone before 'you' has done also,

Through evolution 'I' come-to-know thy Self, as it was once purported, and claimed. However, only once, 'Who am 'I'?' is understood, and known, properly, fully, Accurately, Correctly, and thus perfectly, then, and only then, all-of-this can be explained, and understood, successfully, by others.

Until you others also come-to-know thy 'Self', then what is being 'seen', and observed', here is where and what are all the mistakes, misinterpretations, and confusions that are being made by you, human beings.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am So, the term “consciousness” always refers to a subject who has a mental experience.
So, the word and term 'consciousness', actually, always, refers to a 'subject' who has a 'mental experience', and thus not 'now' to the 'mental experiences', themselves. Well, to 'you' 'the individual subject' known as "mmarco", anyway right?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am For example, when we feel pain, what exists is not pain alone but “we who feel pain”; the “we” is an intrinsic part of the experience of pain.
But, once more, who and/or what is the 'we', exactly?

Once 'you' have worked this out, and are able to answer it properly and Correctly, then 'you' will be one step closer to answering the question, 'Who am 'I'?', properly and Correct, as well.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am The same is true for any action: for example, there is no “walking” without a “walking subject”. The idea that an experience can exist without an experiencer is simply a nonsensical expression, exactly as the expression “spherical cube”, which is an expression formed by juxtaposing two words whose meaning is mutually exclusive, thus leading to an intrinsic logical contradiction.
What 'you' are talking about and referring to here could also be an 'oxymoron', right?

Also, when the 'experience' the 'big bang' happened and occurred, then who and/or what was the 'experiencer', at that 'time'?

Or, when the 'experience' of a meteor hitting earth tens of millions of years ago who and/or what was 'the experiencer' then?

Or, when animals or plants were 'experiencing' getting eaten by dinosaurs who and/or what was 'the experiencer' then?

Or, when the 'experience' of a tree falling in the forest happens and occurs when there is no one to hear 'the experience', then who and/or what is 'the experiencer', then?

Or, did none of 'those experiences' happen and occur, to 'you'?

Or, is there something else going on here?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am Language allows us to form meaningless expressions and this can create illusory definitions;
Does this apply to 'you' above here also?

For example, could your own made up definition above here for the 'consciousness' word be just a 'meaningless expression' and/or just an 'illusory creation' of yours?

Or, does this claim of yours here not apply, to 'you'?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am these expressions may create the illusion of a meaning, while being devoid of any meaning.
I would suggest that 'those expressions' are, literally, not devoid of 'any meaning', but may well be devoid of any 'actual' meaning, and/or 'any meaning' that is sufficient and/or works in with what is actually True and Right, in Life.
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am The idea that consciousness or a mental experience can be subjectless, in the sense that it does not imply a unitary subjectivity that has a mental experience, is an illusory idea exactly like the idea of ​​a spherical cube or the idea that there may be a “walking” without a “walking subject”.
Can there be a 'big bang' without a 'big bang subject'? Or, can there be a 'meteor explosion' with a 'meteor explosion subject'?

If no, then why not, exactly?

But, if yes, then how, exactly?
mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am What distinguishes science from supertitions or philosophical speculations is that science is a combination of logic and empirical evidence, and the most fundamental and direct empirical evidence is that we are the subject of our mental experiences.
Could 'this' be a 'meaningless definition', or an 'incorrect' or 'insufficient' definition'?

mmarco wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:55 am
Age wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:08 am If 'we', already, know, exactly, what 'consciousness', itself, is, then why are 'you' telling 'us' what 'consciousness' is, here?
Because it is necessary to define the words we use in order to comunicate .
Very, very True.

However, is there a possibility that your own made up definitions might not be sufficient or might not work in, exactly and perfectly, with what is actually irrefutably True and Right, in Life?

Or, is 'this' not a possibility, to you?