Philosophy Now Forum

much of history has been a pursuit of
a utopia of some sort....Christians for example,
but also, Marxists, communists, and even capitalists.....

The Marxist/communist utopia is the final solution, the
ultimate creation of the ''Worker state" and capitalists
find their utopia in everyone getting their version of the
American dream... the house with a picket fence,
two kids and a dog named Fido... according to Capitalists,
that is the American utopia.....the reason we don't have that,
at least according to the capitalists, is that people don't work
hard enough, they don't believe enough, they are too lazy to
achieve the American dream... a utopia by any other name....

As with any utopia, it is full of nonsense.... the American dream is, to
be blunt, a con job... work hard all your life and what exactly do you get?
Barely enough to retire on and physical issues that arise from working
hard all your life.... is the promise of money/wealth, worth the reality
of having very little once you retire, (not to mention, given the
reality of life, the average person has from the day of retirement to
death, about 9 years... is that really worth 50 years of killing oneself)
and finding that the pursuit of the American dream is really a
pursuit of a utopia, a false utopia.....

if the goal of life is life, then spending that life working day in and day
out for 50 years, makes no sense.... if the goal of life is life, then we
should spend life just being and enjoying and engaging in life......
the point of life becomes seeing the beauty of the sunset,
and spending time with one's family and a day well spent
just reading a book..... that is using life as it should be used....
but most of us, spend our lives, working and/or preparing to work....

(the average person spends an hour commuting to work.. on top
of the actual work, on top of getting ready for work, that is another hour,
so, out of a 24 hour day, we spend almost half of that in some aspect of work)

and how are we to live when work or some aspect of work takes up 10 hours
of the day? the fact of the matter is that work consumes a substantial part
of our days, weeks and years of our life, and for what? not to have a life?

what becomes the point of life if we spend it working?

but there are other utopias out there....the religious utopias where
if we find god, we win...... in which we practice exactly what work
promises us, a promise if we sacrifice today, we will be rewarded tomorrow....
a rather empty promise, as utopias usually are empty promises.......

Now one may say, but Kropotkin, you are wrong? Ok, then
why are you spending your life, the vast majority of your life,
working? What are you going to gain by spending your life working?
What will you achieve by working for 50 years?

a utopia is only as good as the promise made for spending ones
life seeking that utopia....... the inevitable need of utopias
of forcing one to sacrifice.... a utopia always demands a sacrifice.....
is the utopia really worth the sacrifice? I sincerely doubt it.....

So, Kropotkin, what exactly are you arguing for?

the point of the state and society is to meet our needs...
the goal of every single living being is to meet their needs,
of substance, of water, of reproduction, of moving...

but there is no point or goal inherent in life itself.....
what is the point of say, Lions.... simply to reproduce other
lions... nothing more, nothing less...... that is the law of
evolution......which says that the point of existence is to
reproduce oneself..... there is no other goal or purpose in
existence, within evolution...within biology.....

Human beings are animals, and the only surefire goal/purpose I
can see is the evolutionary need/drive for reproduction......

But Kropotkin, there must be some other point or purpose to
existence other than just reproducing? and every other goal that I
can see is a utopia..... a promise of a better future than the one
I have today..... but what is also true is that we ourselves muddy
up the water by our own feeling/belief that existence itself
has a purpose, a goal specifically designed for human beings....
that singular idea, vision of a utopia that awaits us if we
are willing to sacrifice ourselves for some utopian idea....
the American dream, the goal of reaching heaven, the goal of
becoming one with the universe.... of joining the original void....
all versions of utopia....

is there a vision of human beings that does not include some
drive for utopia? that is what is needed...... how do go through
life without any need for a utopia.....

thoughts?

Kropotkin

we see today, as we have seen for decades in both Europe and America,
those who believe that the answer is to simply destroy the entire thing....
to smash all the ism's and ideologies that we have.... in my anarchists
days, that too was my wish.... and the firm hope was that from the
destruction of the state/society, a utopia came about.....
those who want to smash the modern world, in wild hopes
that a utopia might come about... I have a bridge to sell you.....
sure, smash the entire system and what is left? ah, very little.....
the system will need to be rebuilt and those who have the dreams
of rebuilding the system, will become the head of the new system...
which basically means that you have simply replace one despotic
system with another ''future'' despotic system.....
the only thing that has changed is the names of the owners of the
means of production..... the means of production hasn't changed,
thus the system hasn't changed....smash the system and we still
need to eat and drink and be educated and have health care..
we still need to meet our biological and psychological needs
of being human...... we need substance to stay alive and we
need the psychological needs to have hope for life.... for without
meeting the psychological needs, we lose hope, we become
untethered in life... we human beings need love and safety/security
and esteem and a sense of belonging as much, and for some more,
then we need the basics of existence, food, water, shelter,
health care.. etc, etc....

and that is really the goal... of creating a system that meets our needs,
capitalism, meets, well sort of, our biological needs, and communism
meets our psychological needs, well sort of,

but what is really needed is a political, economic, social and legal
system that meets our needs... which is something that capitalism
or communism or Catholicism doesn't do....the various isms have
failed in allowing us to reach our needs, either biologically or
psychologically..... that is why we are so unhappy and miserable in
our modern times.... are primary needs, both bodily and psychologically,
are not being met...... the isms of modern times are really just
utopias and a utopia can't ever meet our current bodily or psychological
needs...... because a utopia can only be achieved at some future date
and after some sacrifice.... does that sound like something we need
today to meet our current bodily and psychologically needs.

What are we to do? first of all, end the pretense that we can be
saved only by pursuing a utopia.... the fact is, that salvation can only be found
today, here and now...... in meeting our current bodily and psychological
needs, can we be saved.....

Kropotkin

I suggest that we rephrase this.....

How is a person to find out who they are, who they were meant
to be if, if they spend their entire lives being workers, producers
and consumers? the very needs of our society/state prevents
people from even seeking out their own personal needs...
that need of seeking out what we can be... by pursing
our possibilties..... if I spend my life working at a specific job
or industry, how do I find or even pursue what is possibly for me?

what if what is possible for me is to be a great philosopher?
but I have spent my life working, keeping me away from that
possibility..... I was too busy being a worker, a producer or
a consumer to seek out what is possible for me.....
just as you are too busy putting food on the table
and having a roof over your head to seek out what
your possibilities are.....

''What can I be?"" one of the questions of existence,
and one that becomes hidden by work and the pursuit for
our bodily needs..... can I become something greater than just
a worker, a producer, a consumer? Yes, but that means to
leave behind the mantra of the America dream, that utopia
must be left behind.... we must become who we are
and that is very hard if we spend our lives, working,
producing and consuming.... who has the time to
become why they are, if they are too busy earning a living....

you want to be saved? you must then sacrifice... and that sacrifice is
the American dream.... no more chasing another utopia like
the American dream...... that is what it means to be saved....
to be saved from spending one's life in the useless pursuit
of the trinkets of existence... to no longer pursue money,
fame, material possessions, power and titles...... to be saved
requires sacrifice of the utopia of the American dream....


Kropotkin

we have the concept of utopia... pretty clear....
a sacrifice of the present for the future.....

now let us add in another concept.... that of the
Enlightenment....... and what is Enlightenment?
now in the eastern religion sense, but in the western sense....
of rethinking one's beliefs and values that were
indoctrinated into us as children.... as the original Enlightenment
was about the nature of religion.... to investigate the nature
of religion in one's life..... to free oneself from the religious
beliefs that held one back from becoming human.....
to have faith in god is not to have faith in human beings....
religious beliefs prevent us from becoming who we are....
it prevents us from seeing what is possible for us, as human
beings..... salvation is no longer the object, but the object
of existence is to seek out what is possible for us and to
achieve that possibility.....

and in becoming, we are not seeking out utopia, we are seeking
out what is possible for us.... in my youth, I was an athlete,
I competed in sports... I wasn't that good, but that didn't matter
to me... what matter was the attempt.... I wasn't trying to become
the best runner in the world, that wasn't possible... my mile time
was, at best, barely average... no, there was no chance of me being
a great mile runner... but still, I tried... if I can't be the best, why
bother, one might think? But the goal was to become the best runner
I could be.... If my mile time was 4:50 and I improved it to 4:48.. I
improved it...I became a better runner...I was reaching my own goal
of becoming a better runner...

and in thinking about the Enlightenment, I may not be the best
human being I could be, but with the help of my engagement with
my possibilities, I could improve myself.... I could become
a better human being..... that is the value of the Enlightenment..
to see how I could become better.... to open my eyes to the
possibilities.... enlightenment is to open one's eyes to new
possibilities........ in becoming enlighten, I open my eyes
to becoming more human by denying the need for the utopia
of religions....

and in seeking out the possibilities beyond just being a worker, a producer
or a consumer, I can become something more.... more human... not
just a consumer or a worker, but a human being.....someone who
is more than just a worker or a consumer... someone who is trying
to become fully human..... and that is the real goal of the Enlightenment...
to become more human.... and so, my engagement is to open my eyes
to what is possible for me beyond just seeking out the utopias of isms....

Kropotkin

People usually have a negative view of the word "utopia". I suppose rightly so due to all the false promises from politicians. But, me personally, I can see past all that and appreciate the word. Utopia is the ideal society, where everyone lives in harmony and happiness. All places basically strive for this ideal.

The problem is that outdated, stupid ideas still permeate the political sphere. We need to think outside of the box and try new solutions.

I personally like the word "utopia".

Human folly gets in the way of it.

If you find a way to get paid to do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. Failing that, focusing on the aspects of the work day that one enjoys, almost accomplishes the same thing. Like most things, it's a matter of perspective.