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--and how 'identity politics' is dragging us to extinction


https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/2 ... h-ukraine/


''As Russian forces continue their violent march into a largely white nation, into a Slavic country in the east of Europe, what is the woke set saying? ‘Black Lives Matter.’ Seriously. The modish identitarians who make up what passes for ‘the left’ these days have finally found something in the Ukraine calamity that they can get truly, noisily agitated about. No, not the fact that a nation’s sovereignty is being pummelled by an unforgiving external power. Not even the fact that many Ukrainians have already lost their lives in this terrible invasion....''

The Ukraine War is a horrible war. It's also an arranged war. The American government announced it intended to have Ukraine apply to enter NATO, which it soon did, knowing full well that this would provoke Putin into action. They said they knew that at least a dozen years before they did it; and ten years ago, Nigel Farage warned the EU outright, that they simply had to stop poking Putin in Ukraine.

They did it anyway.

The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change." This will not happen. So they're talking about a perpetual overseas war, that is guaranteed to end in failure, as well. Ukrainians will continue to be immolated. Ukraine will be lost to Russia. But the rich will get much richer as a result. The taxes from ordinary Americans will fill their pockets.

Why did they start it? Because war is their tax-grab money laundry. They want it producing for them, set on "high," for as long as they can make it go. And they don't care about Ukraine. If they did, they would be suing for terms, at the very least. But better, they never would have provoked the war.

"Solidarity with Ukraine," is a phrase that in their mouths means, "Pay to keep the war going." To be in genine solidarity with Ukraine, one should be looking at stopping the war, and NATO should not be interfering in volitile countries on Russia's border.

Not the point of the article. Everyone's an 'armchair expert on it. Russia attacked Ukraine didn't it? What more is there to say?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:08 pm The Ukraine War is a horrible war. It's also an arranged war. The American government announced it intended to have Ukraine apply to enter NATO, which it soon did, knowing full well that this would provoke Putin into action. They said they knew that at least a dozen years before they did it; and ten years ago, Nigel Farage warned the EU outright, that they simply had to stop poking Putin in Ukraine.

They didn't KNOW full well, they would have speculated it. Ukraine has every right to be part of NATO protection.

Immanuel Can wrote:The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change."

Provide evidence that the American government want the war to continue.

Any intelligent person that believes in democracy would want a regime change (most Russians do), especially in light of what Putin has inflicted upon the Ukrainian people.

Immanuel Can wrote:Why did they start it?

By "they" you can only mean Russia under Putin - nobody else started this war.

Immanuel Can wrote:"Solidarity with Ukraine," is a phrase that in their mouths means, "Pay to keep the war going."

Actually, it means assisting a sovereign nation that is under siege from an evil regime. Either Ukraine is assisted from the West, or Russia annexes it.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:10 am Ukraine has every right to be part of NATO protection.

NATO is actually a completely useless organization. It was designed after WWII, for a world that is nothing like the one we're in today. Membership in it is now expensive, but practically meaningless.

Immanuel Can wrote:The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change."

Provide evidence that the American government want the war to continue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu2-rZbHhQ
Biden says, "...this man cannot remain in power." How is Putin to take that, except that the US is going to promote the fight to the point of regime change?

Any intelligent person that believes in democracy would want a regime change (most Russians do), especially in light of what Putin has inflicted upon the Ukrainian people.

That may be the case. But if you corner a dog, he's going to bite. And this one can bite many ways, including nuclear. So it's not smart to corner him.

Immanuel Can wrote:Why did they start it?

By "they" you can only mean Russia under Putin - nobody else started this war.

Not so. The Americans knew already, and said a dozen years before, just as Farage warned a decade before, that interference with Ukraine would provoke Putin. And still, they messed with Ukraine. And they got exactly what they expected.

Either Ukraine is assisted from the West, or Russia annexes it.

That's the situation today, I fear. But it was not what started this war. What started it was the American determination to bring Ukraine into NATO...no less a provocative act, they knew, than when the Russians tried to put missiles in Cuba. Ukraine is closer to Russia than Cuba to Florida.

There's simply no possibility that the Americans were surprised when Russia invaded. They knew it was coming, because they had deliberately set off the provocation. https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato ... n-admit-it#

Let it be said: none of that implies Putin is a good man, or that Ukraine belongs to Russia. But what it shows is that there were two villainous forces, not one, that came together to cause that war. And the ones who are paying for it are the Ukrainians.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 3:20 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:10 am Ukraine has every right to be part of NATO protection.

NATO is actually a completely useless organization. It was designed after WWII, for a world that is nothing like the one we're in today. Membership in it is now expensive, but practically meaningless.

It was setup primarily to deal with the Communist East (not China) threat - mainly Soviet Russia. That threat is clearly still very real for neighbouring European countries. Finland and Sweden have joined since Russia invaded Ukraine so to suggest NATO is meaningless is rather short of sight, clearly countries the benefit in a safety net.

Immanuel Can wrote:

atto wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change."

Provide evidence that the American government want the war to continue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu2-rZbHhQ
Biden says, "...this man cannot remain in power." How is Putin to take that, except that the US is going to promote the fight to the point of regime change?

So Biden made that statement after Russia started bombing civilians to smithereens. One cannot infer from Biden's statement that 'allies' will support the war\any war until there is regime change.

IC wrote:

atto wrote:Any intelligent person that believes in democracy would want a regime change (most Russians do), especially in light of what Putin has inflicted upon the Ukrainian people.

That may be the case. But if you corner a dog, he's going to bite. And this one can bite many ways, including nuclear. So it's not smart to corner him.

He wasn't cornered, he's just a megalomaniac psychopath.

Immanuel Can wrote:

atto wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:Why did they start it?

By "they" you can only mean Russia under Putin - nobody else started this war.

Not so. The Americans knew already, and said a dozen years before, just as Farage warned a decade before, that interference with Ukraine would provoke Putin. And still, they messed with Ukraine. And they got exactly what they expected.

Ukraine has requested membership to NATO since 2008 and thus far was declined. Nobody knew with certainty that Putin would invade Ukraine upon its request for membership to NATO, for surely the Ukrainians themselves would have never made the request to join if they knew their country would be borderline decimated.

IC wrote:

atto wrote:Either Ukraine is assisted from the West, or Russia annexes it.

That's the situation today, I fear. But it was not what started this war. What started it was the American determination to bring Ukraine into NATO...no less a provocative act, they knew, than when the Russians tried to put missiles in Cuba. Ukraine is closer to Russia than Cuba to Florida.

There's simply no possibility that the Americans were surprised when Russia invaded. They knew it was coming, because they had deliberately set off the provocation. https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato ... n-admit-it#

Let it be said: none of that implies Putin is a good man, or that Ukraine belongs to Russia. But what it shows is that there were two villainous forces, not one, that came together to cause that war. And the ones who are paying for it are the Ukrainians.

It does seem foolish to attempt to bring ex soviet countries into NATO, but RE: “Two villainous forces” – that sounds like you truly believe that US policy intended to start the war, for nefarious financial gains you mentioned earlier. It wouldn’t surprise me, the arms manfacturers share the same pockets with the political elites, but I don’t think the war was intentionally started by US policy makers, surely people aren’t that sick.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 9:05 am ...to suggest NATO is meaningless is rather short of sight, clearly countries the benefit in a safety net.

The whole "world policeman" idea is dangerous nonsense. It has America now participating in causing wars, instead of preventing them, and has them sending billions of American tax dollars to the support of an organization that should be paid for by the participant countries, but never was.

And now there's a class of elite politicians that has discovered how unbelievably lucrative causing foreign wars can be, and they're the one's driving the war. They're getting billions, the military-industrial complex is getting billions, and the American tax-payer is footing the bill. It's all terribly sinister.

Immanuel Can wrote:

atto wrote: Provide evidence that the American government want the war to continue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu2-rZbHhQ
Biden says, "...this man cannot remain in power." How is Putin to take that, except that the US is going to promote the fight to the point of regime change?

So Biden made that statement after Russia started bombing civilians to smithereens. One cannot infer from Biden's statement that 'allies' will support the war\any war until there is regime change.

One doesn't have to. These "allies" do not run NATO. America does.

IC wrote:

atto wrote:Any intelligent person that believes in democracy would want a regime change (most Russians do), especially in light of what Putin has inflicted upon the Ukrainian people.

That may be the case. But if you corner a dog, he's going to bite. And this one can bite many ways, including nuclear. So it's not smart to corner him.

He wasn't cornered,

Oh no? Tell a despot that he has only two choices: victory or death, and he'll fight to the death. That's what Biden told Putin, essentially: for "regime change" means death to Putin, for certain. His rivals will finish him off. He knows it. He's not going to let "regime change" happen.

He's already threatened to use nukes (if anybody tries to take him out in South Africa, when he visits). Do you think he's not the type to do that, especially if he thinks it's his last option?

Nobody knew with certainty that Putin would invade Ukraine upon its request for membership to NATO,

Farage did. And the US foreign secretary did. Both declared it publicly, over a decade before it happened. I find it impossible to think everybody else was simply asleep. Even Biden was awake somewhat, in those days.

It does seem foolish to attempt to bring ex soviet countries into NATO,

Beyond foolish: utterly pointless, and absurdly provocative. But they wanted a war, and they got one.

but RE: “Two villainous forces” – that sounds like you truly believe that US policy intended to start the war, for nefarious financial gains you mentioned earlier.

100%, I do. I know they did. They knew, and they provoked the situation in Ukraine anyway. We'll probably never find out what Biden Jr. was doing with Burisma, but you can be quite sure it wasn't acting as a consultant to the board. Their need for outrageously-expensive advice from drug-addled perverts who have absolutely no experience in oil is probably minimal.

It wouldn’t surprise me, the arms manfacturers share the same pockets with the political elites,

We know that they do. It's very simple: they take in the taxes, trumpeting "patriotism" and "making the world free." The taxes are used to buy billions in munitions from the military-industrial complex. The money can no longer be accounted for then, since it's 'invested' in things that blow up and get blown up. No accountant in the world can track explosions, especially in an overseas war. Then the military-industrial complex pays to support candidates who will continue foreign wars, through campaign donations and other sorts of perks. Everybody gets rich, only foreigners die, and only the American people get poor.

It's a complete scam.

but I don’t think the war was intentionally started by US policy makers, surely people aren’t that sick.

I'm continually amazed at how sick some people can be. If there are "Putins" and "Xis" overseas, do you think there are no such people in North America? They might not be president, or they might; but they could sure be politicians, officials, members of the establishment executive...and members of the military-industrial complex. That's where all the big money is, if you're a greedy, non-productive, narcissistic psychopath. And in a country the size of the US, there are bound to be a few around. Where did Epstein ply his trade?

I have little to argue against what you are saying there. So where do we go from here re Ukraine?

No doubt you feel Trump is key to any strategy to end the war?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 1:21 pm I have little to argue against what you are saying there. So where do we go from here re Ukraine?

No doubt you feel Trump is key to any strategy to end the war?

I don't know. But evidently, that's what the Washington establishment, both Dem and Repub, is terrified of: that Trump would stop the war. The money-flow would dry up. They'd lose their cash cow in Ukraine.

Would he do it? I think he would. He doesn't need the money. And certainly, Putin's going to find him a much bigger problem, and a much more savvy negotiator, than Biden, whom Putin clearly does not fear at all, and with whom he has no reason to negotiate.

"Regime change," remember? There is no possibility of negotiation from a position of "regime change."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:08 pm The Ukraine War is a horrible war. It's also an arranged war. The American government announced it intended to have Ukraine apply to enter NATO, which it soon did, knowing full well that this would provoke Putin into action. They said they knew that at least a dozen years before they did it; and ten years ago, Nigel Farage warned the EU outright, that they simply had to stop poking Putin in Ukraine.

They did it anyway.

The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change." This will not happen. So they're talking about a perpetual overseas war, that is guaranteed to end in failure, as well. Ukrainians will continue to be immolated. Ukraine will be lost to Russia. But the rich will get much richer as a result. The taxes from ordinary Americans will fill their pockets.

Why did they start it? Because war is their tax-grab money laundry. They want it producing for them, set on "high," for as long as they can make it go. And they don't care about Ukraine. If they did, they would be suing for terms, at the very least. But better, they never would have provoked the war.

"Solidarity with Ukraine," is a phrase that in their mouths means, "Pay to keep the war going." To be in genine solidarity with Ukraine, one should be looking at stopping the war, and NATO should not be interfering in volitile countries on Russia's border.

You should give your firstborn or at least some of your organs to Putin, it's always important to placate the Russians.

Atla wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:08 pm The Ukraine War is a horrible war. It's also an arranged war. The American government announced it intended to have Ukraine apply to enter NATO, which it soon did, knowing full well that this would provoke Putin into action. They said they knew that at least a dozen years before they did it; and ten years ago, Nigel Farage warned the EU outright, that they simply had to stop poking Putin in Ukraine.

They did it anyway.

The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change." This will not happen. So they're talking about a perpetual overseas war, that is guaranteed to end in failure, as well. Ukrainians will continue to be immolated. Ukraine will be lost to Russia. But the rich will get much richer as a result. The taxes from ordinary Americans will fill their pockets.

Why did they start it? Because war is their tax-grab money laundry. They want it producing for them, set on "high," for as long as they can make it go. And they don't care about Ukraine. If they did, they would be suing for terms, at the very least. But better, they never would have provoked the war.

"Solidarity with Ukraine," is a phrase that in their mouths means, "Pay to keep the war going." To be in genine solidarity with Ukraine, one should be looking at stopping the war, and NATO should not be interfering in volitile countries on Russia's border.

You should give your firstborn or at least some of your organs to Putin, it's always important to placate the Russians.

Ridiculous. One does not placate dictators. But then, one also doesn't push them into a war, or corner them by declaring that you're aiming to kill them if they lose. So there are a lot of things one does not do...and yet, some of them have been done.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:16 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 11:08 pm The Ukraine War is a horrible war. It's also an arranged war. The American government announced it intended to have Ukraine apply to enter NATO, which it soon did, knowing full well that this would provoke Putin into action. They said they knew that at least a dozen years before they did it; and ten years ago, Nigel Farage warned the EU outright, that they simply had to stop poking Putin in Ukraine.

They did it anyway.

The American government has also been clear that they want this war to continue until "regime change." This will not happen. So they're talking about a perpetual overseas war, that is guaranteed to end in failure, as well. Ukrainians will continue to be immolated. Ukraine will be lost to Russia. But the rich will get much richer as a result. The taxes from ordinary Americans will fill their pockets.

Why did they start it? Because war is their tax-grab money laundry. They want it producing for them, set on "high," for as long as they can make it go. And they don't care about Ukraine. If they did, they would be suing for terms, at the very least. But better, they never would have provoked the war.

"Solidarity with Ukraine," is a phrase that in their mouths means, "Pay to keep the war going." To be in genine solidarity with Ukraine, one should be looking at stopping the war, and NATO should not be interfering in volitile countries on Russia's border.

You should give your firstborn or at least some of your organs to Putin, it's always important to placate the Russians.

Ridiculous. One does not placate dictators. But then, one also doesn't push them into a war, or corner them by declaring that you're aiming to kill them if they lose. So there are a lot of things one does not do...and yet, some of them have been done.

Wtf are you talking about, no one wanted war with Russia. That would probably lead to a nuclear holocaust.

Atla wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:16 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:14 pm
You should give your firstborn or at least some of your organs to Putin, it's always important to placate the Russians.

Ridiculous. One does not placate dictators. But then, one also doesn't push them into a war, or corner them by declaring that you're aiming to kill them if they lose. So there are a lot of things one does not do...and yet, some of them have been done.

Wtf are you talking about, no one wanted war with Russia. That would probably lead to a nuclear holocaust.

Read previous messages.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:55 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 2:16 pm
Ridiculous. One does not placate dictators. But then, one also doesn't push them into a war, or corner them by declaring that you're aiming to kill them if they lose. So there are a lot of things one does not do...and yet, some of them have been done.

Wtf are you talking about, no one wanted war with Russia. That would probably lead to a nuclear holocaust.

Read previous messages.

You mean your Russian propaganda? Again: no one wanted war with Russia.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 1:06 pm We know that they do. It's very simple: they take in the taxes, trumpeting "patriotism" and "making the world free." The taxes are used to buy billions in munitions from the military-industrial complex. The money can no longer be accounted for then, since it's 'invested' in things that blow up and get blown up. No accountant in the world can track explosions, especially in an overseas war. Then the military-industrial complex pays to support candidates who will continue foreign wars, through campaign donations and other sorts of perks. Everybody gets rich, only foreigners die, and only the American people get poor.

It's a complete scam.

You are rather confused if you think that Russia is some shitty Muslim country in the Middle East with no major military and no nuclear weapons, where you can pull this scam off.