Philosophy Now Forum

I am in tune with two philosophies...

one is existentialism and the other is the Enlightenment.....

I have said before that the Enlightenment project is not finished...
it has a ways to go before we can consign it to history.....
the examination of values and beliefs should be, should be
lifelong...... and the basic point of both existentialism
and the Enlightenment is to engage in the examination of values
and beliefs.... as a human being, what values or beliefs should I
hold to? and why those values/beliefs and not other values and beliefs?

I reject religions and faith because there is no struggle or wrestling
with religions or faith.... you just have to accept them at face value....

I follow Kazantzakis in that I hold it is the struggle, the wrestling
that matters, not the answers we find.....

I stand with the outsiders and the ones who don't fit in....
because they stand outside.. and they don't fit in...
I am almost, almost, tempted to say that the ''truth'',
the ''truth'' we find is not universal or for everyone... but it
has an outside quality to it... and the ''truth'' doesn't fit in....

can a ''truth'' even be universal? I don't think so......

and this leads me to standing, surprisingly enough,
politically with democracies...... for a democracy is
about making choices.... whereas Monarchy and dictatorships
are about others making choices for us.....

for in making choices, we can seek out the ''truth'' for ourselves....
for me, freedom is about seeking out our own ''truths'' and values....
if I can't choose it, I can't see it being the ''truth''....
an answer that is not freely given or chosen, is not the ''truth''..
and if it is universal, it isn't the ''truth''...... the ''truth'' is
not found in the 1.4 billion Christians.. but in the seeking the ''truth''....
regardless of how many or who believes it....

I stand with multiplicity and diversity... not in unity or
homogeneity..... the unity of the universe leaves me cold because
there is no struggle in unity.....

and I stand with struggle and multiplicity and wrestling with the ''truth''

Kropotkin

and the second part of my being in ''tune'' with
is existentialism....

where we bring our questions of existence to a human level......
we suffer... why do we suffer? we have angst, why?
we feel guilt, why? we have shame, why? and salvation,
why do we need to be saved, from what or for what, are
we being saved?

it has been said, that Jesus died on the cross to save us, to redeem us....
that in some fashion, his suffering prevents us from suffering?... now,
I know that's not true, because I am old and I suffer every single day
from being old... previously, I had diseases, and I suffered... how
does Jesus being on the cross, suffering, prevent me from suffering?

how does the violent act of crucifixion, of suffering on the cross,
save me? and what does it save me from?

now, many will tell me that I am wrong in my understanding of Jesus
on the cross..... or I am mistaken..... but the fact is,, there is no
point of any kind for Jesus to suffer on my behalf.... it was a wasted
effort..... for you have to explain why, why Jesus suffering
becomes/became a universal act? for it assumes, as religions often do,
it assumes facts, not already present.... for I am not a universal person,
I am an individual person, not physically connected to others.....
I have an emotional connection to others... is that what the bible
is talking about? the universal act of connection that comes from
the suffering of another? the problem with that, is that we know
that watching others suffering brings about no emotions for
many people.... psychopaths are common among people....
IQ45 is one such psychopath.... how does one connect
the individual suffering of Jesus to a universal act that applies
to everyone?

In existentialism, we see that attempt to turn individual acts of angst or
suffering or guilt, into universal acts of angst, or suffering
or guilt..... how does the individual acts of suffering or angst,
turn into a universal feeling?

Heidegger thought that one universal feeling was called ''Sorge''
which is German, for caring or worrying about things...
care is a universal value..... at least Heidegger thought so....
but in reality, actually seeing people, tells us the lie about
''Sorge'' or care being a universal value..... it isn't.....

as far as I can tell, there is no such universal feeling that encompasses
everyone....

when I was young, the question of suffering never entered my mind...
as I grow old, the question of suffering, of suffering in the universal
path of the Buddha, of growing old, of diseases and of finally death...
grows in my mind.... as I increasingly grow old, which is to say, I
increasingly suffer from old age.... the aches and pains of old age,
that increases every single day.... today hurts more than yesterday...
and tomorrow will hurt more than today..... and on it goes......

and what of existentialism? it is just another means of learning
to accept that which is true... that as we grow old, we increase
in our suffering..... there is no other fact that is as true as that
fact... aging is simply growing in suffering.. nothing more...
and how do we learn to accept that fact?

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2024 6:26 pm I am in tune with two philosophies...

one is existentialism and the other is the Enlightenment.....

I have said before that the Enlightenment project is not finished...
it has a ways to go before we can consign it to history.....
the examination of values and beliefs should be, should be
lifelong...... and the basic point of both existentialism
and the Enlightenment is to engage in the examination of values
and beliefs.... as a human being, what values or beliefs should I
hold to? and why those values/beliefs and not other values and beliefs?

I reject religions and faith because there is no struggle or wrestling
with religions or faith.... you just have to accept them at face value....

I follow Kazantzakis in that I hold it is the struggle, the wrestling
that matters, not the answers we find.....

I stand with the outsiders and the ones who don't fit in....
because they stand outside.. and they don't fit in...
I am almost, almost, tempted to say that the ''truth'',
the ''truth'' we find is not universal or for everyone... but it
has an outside quality to it... and the ''truth'' doesn't fit in....

can a ''truth'' even be universal? I don't think so......

and this leads me to standing, surprisingly enough,
politically with democracies...... for a democracy is
about making choices.... whereas Monarchy and dictatorships
are about others making choices for us.....

for in making choices, we can seek out the ''truth'' for ourselves....
for me, freedom is about seeking out our own ''truths'' and values....
if I can't choose it, I can't see it being the ''truth''....
an answer that is not freely given or chosen, is not the ''truth''..
and if it is universal, it isn't the ''truth''...... the ''truth'' is
not found in the 1.4 billion Christians.. but in the seeking the ''truth''....
regardless of how many or who believes it....

I stand with multiplicity and diversity... not in unity or
homogeneity..... the unity of the universe leaves me cold because
there is no struggle in unity.....

and I stand with struggle and multiplicity and wrestling with the ''truth''

Kropotkin

Hi Peter. good morning to you my friend.

The values and beliefs are those you find reading about stoics. Like, "The Daily Stoic".

In addition, if you slow the mind down and pay more attention to your feelings, you will find the values/beliefs.

e.g.: If you steal a pen from a store.........how does that "feel" inside of you?

When you listen to the deeper you, the feeling you (not the you, you see in the mirror necessarily) then you are guided properly.

Part of the learning IMO is not to get overly complicated. Keeping it simple is key.

You can take "existentialism", "spirituality", "Kazantzakis" views/teachings, duality, etc.... and toss it tall out the door. Not that you should. <-- It is an example of you/all of us keeping it simple. There is no reason to complicate things to make anything seem more important than the simple.

The masses understand the simple far better than the complicated. Do you remember Dr. Laura Schlessinger? She ended each show with "Now, go do the right thing." Simple.

Mark

BuzzCap7 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 12:51 pm

e.g.: If you steal a pen from a store.........how does that "feel" inside of you?

A bit uncomfortable as you are walking out of the store, I imagine.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 1:08 pm

BuzzCap7 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 12:51 pm

e.g.: If you steal a pen from a store.........how does that "feel" inside of you?

A bit uncomfortable as you are walking out of the store, I imagine.

Exactly Harbal. And there is your internal guidance system at work.

I read recently (and have always agreed with) that when you listen/read something, pause without thought before replying. That pause is you listening to the deeper you for a proper/correct reply. If a reply is going to be given.

Listen to the deeper you.

Mark

BuzzCap7 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 1:48 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 1:08 pm

BuzzCap7 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 12:51 pm

e.g.: If you steal a pen from a store.........how does that "feel" inside of you?

A bit uncomfortable as you are walking out of the store, I imagine.

Exactly Harbal. And there is your internal guidance system at work.